Australia tests first under-16 social media restriction (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: an account at the moment deactivated. Some people have been encouraged to sort of download their information before this came into force to preserve that. The exact technical details though will depend on the platform concerned.

[00:00:15] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Okay, so when, Ema, when it comes to penalties, because our understanding is that they're not going after the individuals, they're going after the companies, how does this work?

[00:00:28] Speaker 3: So the Australian Government and the eSafety Commissioner have said that this whole plan is really not to penalise or to punish young people. That's what they are saying. They are saying that this has nothing to do with, you know, getting angry at young people. So they have said that there will be no penalties for under 16 year olds who access these social media sites once the restriction kicks in, or for their parents or carers. So as I said, it's about protecting young people and not isolating them, but more informing them to, you know, help support their health and wellbeing online. So it's not the young people or their parents that are going to be penalised. They say it's going to be these social media platforms. So they may be the ones that face the penalties if they're not doing these reasonable steps to stop young people from accessing their platforms. So they could face fines up to AU$49.5 million for serious or repeated breaches of this. So if more young people are still using their sites, they're the people that, they're the companies rather, that will be impacted, not the young people themselves.

[00:01:42] Speaker 2: So it's the companies rather than the young people. Janelle, what about those guys that have got workarounds? Because we know that they are going to try it.

[00:01:50] Speaker 4: Yeah, they are going to try it. And a lot of the young people online have been speaking about ways that they have got around it already. So some of the, so Meta, which owns Facebook and Instagram, they could use government ID or a video to provide a selfie. And Snapchat have said that users could use bank account, photo ID, or a selfie for verification. And the key word here is selfie, because some people are using photos of their mum. We've had reports of someone saying that somebody used a picture of Beyonce and was able to get in and create an account. So it seems like we're very early days. The social media platforms haven't necessarily tightened screws enough to keep these young people out. And then there's another question here of, if you do keep them out of these 10 biggest social media platforms, are they just going to go to smaller ones where there's more risk, more danger, and less money to keep the harmful content out?

[00:02:55] Speaker 2: A lot of questions, a lot of questions. And we've had, I just want to say to our audience, thank you so much for all of your questions. Chris, so many questions coming in. Data protection, that's something that is of huge concern, because critics have raised concerns that when it comes to this large-scale collection of data verification, it's going to be scaled up. What happens with all those details?

[00:03:18] Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a concern with age verification generally, wherever it has been implemented and rolled out, that we have seen privacy organisations, campaigners, raise concerns about the additional data that people have to supply. I think with social media companies, you can certainly say, yes, that's a concern, but you've got to face up to the fact they already have a huge amount of data about people. So in a sense, is this changing the situation that much? I think also the age verification firms say that they would keep the data secure, that their technology protects data. But we have seen breaches of information used to, in this case, appeal age verification decisions from the platform Discord, and that caused a lot of anxiety. So there are concerns about how the data will be handled. Will it be kept secure for sure?

[00:04:17] Speaker 2: Chris, thanks for the time being. Don't go away, because I've got a few more questions here. And our thanks to our audience. Ema, when it comes to how Australia plans to enforce the ban, how is that going to work? Because you mentioned that they won't be penalising the people, they'll be going for the companies. But technically, how will that look?

[00:04:39] Speaker 3: So it's really interesting. I think the government has been very upfront with the Australian population saying that this is really a work in progress. As you've said, this is a world first. This is the first time that this kind of ban is being enforced. So it's not going to be perfect. There's going to be a lot of teething errors. And unfortunately, as we heard the Prime Minister say earlier, this is coming at the start of the school holidays as well. So maybe not the best time for teething problems. But as Janelle was saying, it's not as simple to get around these age bans as lying about your date of birth when you're signing up to a website. So the government says that all of these tech firms need to take what they say are reasonable steps to stop young people from accessing their logins and from accessing signing up. So they need to use multiple age assurance technologies. And these can be selfies, they can be voice recognition, they can also be what they're calling age inference. That's what I was looking for. So that analyzes people's online behavior from years. So if you set up your Instagram account or your Facebook account years ago, you're not going to be shut down because they can see that you've been on it for a few years. So platforms can't rely on users self-certifying or parents for vouching for their children either. And Snapchat has said, as Janelle was saying, has said that users can use their bank accounts and photo ID to verify themselves as well. So as I said at the start, it's really going to take a long time to iron out and surely there's going to be people that get around it. But I think it's really a work in progress that is the main crux of this today, certainly on the first day.

[00:06:37] Speaker 2: A work in progress. Janelle, I've got to ask you, as our presenter for the BBC News Socials, a lot of chat about this on the socials?

[00:06:46] Speaker 4: There's a lot of chat about it, yeah. And a lot of people are, a lot of younger people that have been tuning into the conversation are saying that the people making the rules didn't have social media when they were young. So why should they be making the rules? And I think when we do speak about social media, we do speak about the ills about it, some of the harm. But a lot of people, especially young people, if they are in a small local area, they may use that to find other communities where they can find themselves and they can develop in their adolescence as well. But so that's a part, that's a lot of the conversation. But there's also been talk about children, but people potentially wanting to go elsewhere and what those apps will be. And these are the biggest apps, like I said before, that will be banned. But in the past, other apps have popped up when these sort of things have come in, like Omegle, and that ended up being shut down two years ago because of its failure to protect young people. So there's a lot of conversation here.

[00:07:50] Speaker 2: An awful lot of conversation. And Ema, just as a throwaway question, when you saw Anthony Albanese sort of do that message, it's the school holidays, the summer holidays coming up in Australia. He's telling the kids to go outside, pick up a book. How did that go down?

[00:08:06] Speaker 3: Yeah, not very well. I think as Janelle was saying, you know, a lot of these people that are making these laws, even though in Australia, you know, there was wide community consultation with parents, with teachers, with young people. It is a very different generation. Even from when I was on my summer holidays, it's a very different generation. You know, I think it's it's very interesting to see how it's going down in Australia. And I think that it's come in at the start of the summer holidays. Keep in mind as well, these are our long holidays. So this is like, you know, six to eight weeks break for a lot of people in a lot of parts of Australia. Social media is their way to keep in touch and their way to contact people. So it's really, I'd say it's going to change. I think the Prime Minister was saying, you know, this is going to change the entire culture of Australia. And it certainly will. And it's coming at a very, very interesting time. Fascinating.

[00:09:04] Speaker 4: When you think about after Covid, people weren't on their phones as much. And you saw that dramatic peak in social media usage at that time. And this is a generation of people that grew up going to school via these devices. So it will be a big kind of wake up call and a big change in behaviour.

[00:09:23] Speaker 2: That is such an interesting point. Well, on that note, I'm going to bring you back in our senior technology correspondent. Chris, is this the government losing control? Is this censorship? What are we talking about here? Because as our guests here in the studio, Ema and Janelle were saying, at one point, we were really reliant on social media and on online facilities for basic school education during Covid.

[00:09:48] Speaker 1: I think people are still reliant on these social networks. I mean, people run businesses, people organise their lives on social media. So I think that legacy of Covid is really still there. In terms of government's approaches, I think there is criticism of this kind of approach. Interestingly, in the UK, from some children's charities who say, look, these platforms should be making their products safe for kids. We shouldn't be keeping kids off them, the companies themselves, to just make them safe. So, you know, I think there is an element of disagreement about this being the right approach and not necessarily just from children.

[00:10:31] Speaker 2: Well, I tell you what, some people that are not happy with this are obviously the big tech companies. Janelle's been looking into that. They've been reacting. Chris, thank you. They've been reacting.

[00:10:41] Speaker 4: Well, Meta has actually started removing some accounts. So that happened, that began on the 4th of December. So people that were aged between 13 and 15 years old, their accounts were shut down. And a spokesperson for Meta told the BBC on Thursday that compliance with the law will be an ongoing and multi-layered process. So while Meta is committed to complying with the law, we believe a more effective, standardised and privacy-preserving approach is needed. So it seems like the biggest social media organisation is trying to work with the Australian government on this and is trying to prevent these accounts being made and shutting them down. So that's a big move. It seems like they're trying to avoid these fines. And Australia's former leader of Facebook, which is owned by Meta, did say that the fines that Ema mentioned before are a small incentive. So they're like a parking ticket for companies like Facebook. So it seems like regardless of that, they're still going to try to abide by the laws.

[00:11:59] Speaker 2: So rather than fight it in the courts, they're going to try and work with it. That's really interesting. We know, Chris, it's not just obviously Australia looking into things like this. We know that actually Denmark, we were speaking to the Secretary of State for Digital Media in Denmark, who was saying that they're looking at something similar. Talk us through what other countries are doing.

[00:12:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I certainly think across Europe, there is some support for this kind of measure. I mean, there was a legislation or a vote in the European Parliament, I should say, endorsing this kind of approach. We see similar approaches in Germany, France, Denmark, as you've mentioned, Spain. You know, there are lots of places around the world that are looking at this kind of restriction. It has to be said, for most of those places in Europe that I've mentioned, there's a degree of parental consent. So if you're under 16, but your parents consent to it and you're over 13, then you can gain access. I think in the UK, there's a different sort of approach, which is focused on protecting children from harm rather than keeping them off certain platforms. So in other words, you know, your people, children can use your platform as long as they don't encounter anything harmful. But certainly, you know, the world is watching this because this is ahead of the game, if you like, from the other places that we're talking about.

[00:13:21] Speaker 2: And Chris, just on that point, we've got one particular, really fascinating question from Paul from Lincolnshire, who's asking, how is the UK government responding? Of course, we know that the UK has an Online Safety Act for 2023. But how does that compare with what Australia is doing?

[00:13:36] Speaker 1: Well, I think, as I've said, the Online Safety Act kind of looks at the problem from the other end of the telescope. It's basically focusing on the harm. And if you like, saying to platforms, you have to stop children encountering these harms. If you don't, then you may have to keep children off your platform. And then there are some specific cases around pornography platforms where the UK has introduced some very stringent rules saying you have to have age assurance, age verification there. And also the UK is, I think, taking a kind of a bit of a tougher approach with that age verification in the sense that it is saying this has to be highly effective. And the kind of inference that colleagues were talking about is perhaps, you know, may not cross that threshold. So I think there's a sort of difference of flavour. But the overall objective, of course, is entirely the same, to keep teenagers, to keep young people away from harmful content. And the objections are very similar, that, you know, young people learn a lot from being online and gain a lot from being online, and they shouldn't be excluded from it.

[00:14:46] Speaker 2: Well, that's actually, Chris, thank you. That's actually something that Rosemary was pointed out, Ema, and I wonder if you'd pick up on this. It's this idea that how the impact that this will have on students who need their phones, on people who rely on their phones. We touched already upon that interacting through, you know, the COVID period. But what are people talking about? How are they going to work around this?

[00:15:10] Speaker 3: Absolutely. So apps like Messenger and Teams are not falling under the ban by the Australian government. And the government has really said that they want this delay in young people getting access to social media to also be a time of learning and about learning about the risks and the impacts of social media in those, you know, few years from 13 to 16 before they're actually allowed on it. So they say that's to give young people a better chance at to prevent and deal with issues once they turn 16. So they're more aware of what's out there and how they can deal with it when they do get access to social media accounts. But a lot of, you know, these learning online learning tools don't fall under the Australian ban yet. But the government has said that this list is very fluid and will be updated over the coming weeks, months, years, of course, as well. So it's a list that's, you know, changing a lot as time goes on.

[00:16:13] Speaker 2: Okay, Ema, thank you. We've got a techie one. So I'm going to throw that to you, Chris. Chris in Exeter wants to know, why isn't there a settings option on the mobile phone itself requiring verification from the parent to allow or deny access for an underage user?

[00:16:29] Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a really interesting idea. A lot of the big tech firms would favour an approach which said, check the ages of your users at an earlier stage, maybe when they're getting a device or at the app store, you sort of say, you know, is this person old enough to use this device? Is this person old enough to buy or download this app? A lot of the big tech firms would like that kind of approach. There is stuff a bit similar to that. I mean, a lot of people in the UK may have experienced that thing where you try and, I don't know, look up the address of a pub and your phone won't let you because the network doesn't know that you're an adult yet. And so it's kind of, you know, blocking your access to that kind of site. So that is an idea. It's a solution that some of the big tech companies would like. I think other people would say you probably need a layered approach. You need all of these steps.

[00:17:24] Speaker 2: I didn't realise that that happens. Obviously, I don't go out enough. Chris, thank you so much. Janelle, just a final thought from you. So obviously, a lot of reaction on social media. This will be ongoing, especially with people. Are people even talking about workarounds?

[00:17:39] Speaker 4: Well, yeah, the conversation has been that started. So people are talking a bit about workarounds. I have not seen an app really stand out, but there are kind of smaller apps offshoots like Lemon8, which is a version of a similar app to TikTok and connected to TikTok and owned by ByteDance as well that I don't believe is affected. So maybe young people might use that instead. So there are other apps that people may flock to, but it's very, very early days. So we'll see how tight these these bans and these restrictions will be. Obviously.

[00:18:13] Speaker 2: But the point is, don't do that. Get off your phones and go outside and read a book. Can I just... And enjoy the summer holidays. Janelle Amamoy, Iman McCarthy and also Chris Vallance, thank you so much for joining us here on Your Voice, Your BBC.