Burnham By‑Election Bid Puts Starmer in a Bind (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: I'm just reading the letter.

[00:00:01] Speaker 2: What letter?

[00:00:02] Speaker 1: From Andy Burnham. To whom? The chair of the NEC, the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party. I write to seek the permission of the NEC to enter the process for the selection of Labour's candidate for the forthcoming Gordon and Denton by-election.

[00:00:16] Speaker 2: Goodness me. Now that doesn't sound very interesting. But it is incredibly interesting. And it is a letter and a decision that requires another decision that could change the face of our politics.

[00:00:30] Speaker 1: And he could lose.

[00:00:32] Speaker 2: Lots of people could lose. And we'll be discussing all of that on this Saturday's newscast.

[00:00:38] Speaker 1: Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.

[00:00:40] Speaker 2: And it's Laura in the studio.

[00:00:42] Speaker 1: And it's shenanigans in Manchester and Westminster.

[00:00:44] Speaker 2: Shenanigans, my goodness, shenanigans is one word. So what has actually happened in the last few hours is that Andy Burnham, who we know because he's never been shy about it, one day fancies having a tilt, another tilt, at Labour's top job. Keir Starmer's been in trouble. He's very unpopular. So many people in the Labour Party look to Andy Burnham as potentially the solution. The blockage to that has been that, well, he's not an MP. He's the mayor of Greater Manchester. He doesn't have a perch in Westminster. So he's been unable to challenge Keir Starmer, even if he was ready to go for it. But the standing down of another colleague, Andrew Gwynne, allowed a vacancy to miraculously emerge. And at exactly five o'clock on the button, Andy Burnham confirmed what most people suspected was coming. He is going to want to stand in that by-election, which could clear a route for him to take on Keir Starmer.

[00:01:37] Speaker 1: And the letter that he has posted, which I've got in my hand, says, Dear Chair of the National Executive Committee, I write to seek the permission of the NEC to enter the process. So they can say no.

[00:01:51] Speaker 2: They can say no. Because Andy Burnham is the mayor of Greater Manchester, which is a big, important, influential job where he's been making decisions that genuinely affect the lives of many people who live in the northwest of England, he has to ask the NEC if he's allowed to stand. So it's not like any other Labour activist or any other Labour person who thinks, oh, I want to put my name forward for a by-election. He has to get permission from the very powerful ruling body of the Labour Party. And that therefore puts the massive dilemma on Keir Starmer's doorstep. Because if he allows Andy Burnham to run, he of course hopes that he would win the by-election, which also isn't certain, then he would have sitting behind him on the green benches in Parliament, someone who's made no secret of the fact that he wants his job. If he doesn't allow him to run and gets his cronies, as his critics might call them, on the National Executive Committee to block Andy Burnham, well, then it looks paranoid, petty, scared of a challenge from Burnham. And as one MP wrote even before this announcement this afternoon, it would make the Labour Party look like they were trying to block one of the most popular and well known figures in the party at a time when they're in desperate straits. However, Keir Starmer's allies would say, well, look, it's strong to block Andy Burnham, because a by-election is going to cost enough money anyway, having to have a mayoral election in Greater Manchester would cost millions of pounds and be very disruptive. And as one of them coyly put it to me a few minutes ago, does anybody really think he's doing this because he cares about the good people of Gorton and Denton, the constituents that he's got his eye on now?

[00:03:35] Speaker 1: That's a very good example of the briefing that's been going on. And in fact, there's a word in here, which implies that Andy Burnham is taking a swipe. He's used the word poison. Have you seen that? There's a brand of politics, which seeks to pit people against each other, it brings with it a poison, we should not let enter our city region. I see this by-election as the frontline of that fight for the Manchester way.

[00:04:03] Speaker 2: So he's essentially saying reform are going to try and win that by-election. Reform's going to try and get a foothold in Parliament through a seat in Greater Manchester. And he, Andy Burnham, sees himself as the person best placed to fight that off. Now, reform was second, actually, in the general election in that constituency, but they were quite some way behind. It was not one of those seats where reform was just, you know, a whisker off. However, fast forward a year and a half, reform have been way ahead in the polls for a long time. So of course, they will fancy themselves as strong contenders in that seat.

[00:04:37] Speaker 1: He says, I would be there in returning to support the work of the government, not undermine it. And I have passed on this assurance to the Prime Minister. So there has been a conversation between Manchester and Westminster, between Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer. And he's implying that it's all fine and dandy if he gets there, because he's just going, I'm just going to be helping the government along in the best way I can to help Labour. And actually, what he's not saying in the letter is, I could be there to take the Prime Minister's job.

[00:05:07] Speaker 2: Well, yes. I mean, the problem is, even though he's saying my role in returning would be to use my experience to help it go further and faster, which is, of course, a sanctioned Team Starmer phrase. How many times have we heard Rachel Reeves, for example, and others say further and faster. The fact that he says, I'd be there to support the government, not undermine it. Does Andy Burnham want the Labour Party to prosper? Yes. But yes, also, is Andy Burnham deeply attracted to the idea of leading the Labour Party? Yes, that too. And there will be people, I'm afraid, in all sorts of parches in the Labour Party, who just actually do not believe what he is saying in that letter.

[00:05:49] Speaker 1: He shouldn't have to point it out, should he? It's like, if it's all mates together, you don't say, I'm not going to undermine you. So there's something, but let's, if we turn to the NEC, how many people on the NEC have a say in this decision? And has the number of people changed from a normal NEC decision on a Monday?

[00:06:08] Speaker 2: Yes. And what's going to happen, I think later tonight, but possibly not until tomorrow, because this is all happening quite late in the day on Saturday, a small group of officers of the NEC, people like Lucy Powell, the deputy leader are going to make this decision. This is not going to be a decision that's going to be made by the whole NEC, which has a few dozen of it, lots of union representatives, people from different bits and different parts of the Labour Party. So this will be the sort of inner core of the National Executive Committee. And the crucial thing there is, you know, until quite recently, I think it would have been fair to say, well, Keir Starmer pretty much controls the NEC, you know, it was his first job as opposition leader, get control of the mechanics of the party. He did that quite successfully in the first year of his leadership, he got the NEC and then built on from there. However, Labour's had such a hard time in the last 18 months, there is a bit of a question mark about whether or not all of those people sitting on the NEC and even the small inner group, whether they really are a cohort that Keir Starmer can safely rely on. Now, there's no question, you know, a senior figure in the party once said to me, Morgan McSweeney, the powerful Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, although probably less powerful than he was, he said they'd rather burn Downing Street down than ever let Andy run. But it could back fire, you know, the kind of what kind of a look is it for number 10, if they look so itchy, and so kind of thin skin that they can't even allow somebody to come and be an MP. Flip side, of course, of that is, maybe they'd be nuts to let him in, because they know he's got eyes on Keir Starmer's job. So it's really difficult for them as well.

[00:07:52] Speaker 1: The deputy party leader is Lucy Powell, and she spoke before the release of Andy Burnham's letter.

[00:07:59] Speaker 3: I will want to know that we are putting forward the best candidate that we can, that we are putting forward a real choice to local members. But I also, as deputy, want to make sure that we're working as one team in service of making this Labour government led by Keir Starmer be successful, and that we win elections and that we change the country in the way that we said we would.

[00:08:24] Speaker 1: Now, it's fascinating, isn't it? He sacked her, Keir Starmer sacked her. She then got the job that Angela had, but Angela had to leave because of council tax gate. And he wasn't really wanting Lucy Powell to be the deputy leader. So does that mean that Lucy Powell automatically wants Andy Burnham?

[00:08:42] Speaker 2: Well, I think Lucy Powell, as a powerful woman in her own right in the Labour Party, I think has been unfairly characterised as being some sort of handmaiden of Andy Burnham. You know, she was a cabinet minister, she was a shadow minister for a long time. She's got her own mandate as deputy leader of the Labour Party. So to sort of suggest that, oh, yeah, she's just sort of some like Andy Burnham cheerleader, I think is a load of old guff. And people probably wouldn't say about a male politician, frankly, let's just put that on the record there. However, her saying that openly today, definitively made it harder for the party machine to try and block Andy Burnham. And it made it harder for him not to run, I think, not least because also Sadiq Khan said the same. Angela Rayner said the same. So through Saturday, while we were all doing this sort of willy won't he kind of thing, which he was probably quite enjoying the attention, most politicians would, you had a succession of senior Labour figures going out into the public domain and essentially saying, hey, well, yeah, sure he should run and sure Keir Starmer shouldn't block him. So if the NEC does block him, then and Keir Starmer is seen to be trying to block him. He's not just in opposition to Andy Burnham. He's also putting himself into opposition to some other senior members of the party.

[00:10:00] Speaker 1: So it's interesting that he's also given a clue about his own choreography. Yes, because the letter says he won't be making any other public comment until it is concluded. That's the internal process is concluded beyond the release of this letter. And conclusion must mean a decision by the smaller group of the NEC.

[00:10:19] Speaker 2: Correct. And as we're recording at nearly 5.30 on Saturday, it's my understanding that it's possible the decision will be made tonight, but not inevitable. So this may spill into tomorrow, but it has to be done by midnight tomorrow night. That is the deadline. But there's nothing that the Labour Party likes more than to create a process that they can all then fight and argue about. And I have to say, from a normal newscaster's point of view, yes, it might be all good political sport, but it also looks very, very messy. And there's the potential for it to go wrong in all sorts of different directions, and boil up more bad blood. I suppose that's really the point here. This just will punch the bruise of uncertainty over Labour's leadership. If Keir Starmer was a popular Prime Minister, if his position in the party was truly secure, this wouldn't be a big deal at all. But it is a huge deal for the Labour Party because the Prime Minister's position is not secure. And because the government, even though they have that whopping majority, is not popular in the country. And that's what this is really all about. Yeah, sure, the kind of personal intrigue between Keir and Andy, they've never really got on. Oh, Andy's run for the leadership loads of times and he can't resist the temptation to get back into Parliament. Sure, that's all kind of good fun if you're that way inclined. But really, this is a proxy for deep unhappiness in the governing party.

[00:11:50] Speaker 1: What would be the arguments for blocking him or for stopping him by process? Is there a face or a name? Is there a public face or public name on people who don't want him to run? What do they say? And also, I was asking Nick Watt on Newsnight on Thursday.

[00:12:05] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:12:05] Speaker 1: Isn't it also true that as a result of decisions of conscience made previously, when we didn't know that Andy Burnham would stand in Gorton and Denton, there was a desire by membership to see perhaps an all-women shortlist?

[00:12:18] Speaker 2: That's something Labour's done lots of times.

[00:12:20] Speaker 1: So I mean, I don't think Andy Burnham currently is a woman. So is it possible that there could be a sort of prior standing agreement in Gorton and Denton that we don't know about, which could be cited as a reason why he can't run?

[00:12:34] Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, Labour Party HQ could say, wow, this must be an all-women shortlist, that they could try and find a get out and they could give that as a reason for blocking him. I mean, there absolutely are good reasons for blocking him. And then there are good reasons not to block him. So if you are Keir Starmer and Keir Starmer's allies and team, the reasons for blocking him are this. Why on earth would you want to invite someone who has got the eyes on your job into the place where they'd be able to kick you out of your own or have a go at doing it? Why would you invite the fox into the hen house? You know, that's a, oh, it's just thinking, why do we have Piers Morgan on the show on Sunday mornings? Because it's fun. But you know, why on earth would you bring someone into Westminster, who's got the potential to destabilise you, right? The flip side is, why wouldn't you want someone who is a popular politician in their region to come and be part of the team in Westminster? And because if you do block him, you might just boil up more bad blood and it just all looks even messy. So either way, there's a risk. But either way, also, there's a reward.

[00:13:44] Speaker 1: So it's quite a Game of Thrones saga, isn't it?

[00:13:47] Speaker 2: Hugely.

[00:13:47] Speaker 1: And the thing is that politics is made up of rivals who come together in a team of rivals. So I mean, the thing is, if Keir Starmer keeps Andy Burnham out of Westminster, by using processes as yet unannounced and unknown at the NEC, then he can't stop all rivals being rivals who are already there anyway.

[00:14:06] Speaker 2: Well, no, that's absolutely right. So whether that's Wes Streeting, or whether it's Angela Rayner, or anyone else who one day might fancy a pop at the job. But this is why politics is so much always influenced by events beyond anyone's control and timing. So if we were talking about this a few weeks ago, as we were, at that stage in the game, it looked like the leadership was probably going to be Wes Streeting as the most likely rival to Keir Starmer. There were people urging him to go for it sooner rather than later before the May local elections. Now, suddenly, this opportunity emerges for Andy Burnham. Opportunity knocks. It's very risky for him to go for it too. What happens if he goes for it and reform, have a blinding campaign in the by-election and actually win the seat, humiliating the King of the North, by which point he's had to give up his mayoralty in Greater Manchester. Now, if you look at the polling, well, I mean, who knows, that looks unlikely looking at the last general election result. But nothing, as we know, is impossible these days in politics. There's also a risk. Lots of people in the Labour Party are going to look at this and think, Andy Burnham, how dare you do this at the moment? We are in a really rocky position. It's not long till the local elections. You really are taking the mick by coming and indirectly challenging the Prime Minister in this way.

[00:15:29] Speaker 1: And also, you've raised the by-election itself, which is the public facing part of this. At the moment, it's party facing, isn't it? So I think we've discussed that. But if we do discuss the slate, am I not right that that could be filled with some very big names from other political parties and other political groups?

[00:15:47] Speaker 2: Who knows? There's a rumour that Zak Polanski might run, the leader of the Green Party. I mean, he is a London Assembly member, but he was born in Salford, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but Salford, certainly in Greater Manchester, so that he's got links to the region. He's obviously been on the up recently. Would he fancy a tilt going into Parliament? Don't know. Let's see. That could be fascinating. There was a whisper also that Zia Youssef, who's a very senior member of reform, but who's not yet in Parliament, he might have a go in a by-election. I'd say that's not confirmed either. But by-elections often become these sort of weird, wonderful and also very high profile tests of political popularity.

[00:16:31] Speaker 1: George Galloway.

[00:16:32] Speaker 2: George Galloway, as one example, or some of the Lib Dems' enormous successes, for example, when they won in Amersham in the sort of dying days of the Tory party under, I think that was still Boris Johnson, but who knows, they all moved on so quickly. At that point, it's all a bit of a blur. But these are unpredictable. By-elections are really, really unpredictable.

[00:16:53] Speaker 1: And it's a fascinating snapshot of our multi-party moment in politics. We don't know yet if we're calling it permanent, but we know it's a multi-party snapshot. So this by-election, you've just raised some fascinating names. It could be populated by people who represent the primary colours of our multi-party moment.

[00:17:13] Speaker 2: And that's before we even get to Screaming Lord Such or the Monster Raving Loonies. I mean, who knows, by-elections at a very febrile time, all sorts of things could happen. It could be incredibly interesting. But even how Labour gets through the next sort of 24, 36 hours also could be very bruising. I mean, of course, for Andy Burnham, were he to run and then lose, that's a complete disaster zone. The other reason, a good reason for Labour HQ blocking him, is that they don't want to have to find the Spondoolies to have a big mayoral contest. So a mayoral election costs lots of money. You can bet your bottom dollar if Andy Burnham is not in the mayoral contest, they're going to really want to have a big name in there to be sure that reform doesn't manage to win the mayoralty. I'm kind of giving myself a headache with all the different bits, but that's a good reason for a Labour HQ. Why would you put the politics at risk of one of the biggest cities in the country, where they've had a successful Labour mayoralty? Why would you want to do that?

[00:18:18] Speaker 1: I should say that the letter also says that he will help the campaign, help Labour's campaign in Manchester.

[00:18:23] Speaker 2: Yes, well, there was a whisper yesterday that he was trying to get one of his famous mates in that part of the world to stand as Labour mayor. No idea whether there's truth in it or not. But Gary Neville's name was doing the rounds as some kind of person to take his place. And of course, he appeared in a participatory broadcast with Keir Starmer. So, you know, putting a popular former footballer on the ticket might be something very interesting.

[00:18:48] Speaker 1: I've got another point to make. So I'm going to get my pen.

[00:18:50] Speaker 2: And you're pointing at it.

[00:18:51] Speaker 1: And point it at the ceiling.

[00:18:52] Speaker 2: That's one of my things. You're doing ceiling.

[00:18:55] Speaker 1: Leans forward, point pen. I'll be rude to point it at you. But actually, it's not a bad thing to be blocked, because you still can return at another by-election in the future, when you still have a prime minister in some trouble, maybe more trouble in the future. But let's assume the same amount of trouble. And you've then got the soubriquet of Blocked Burnham.

[00:19:19] Speaker 2: Oh, I love that. You've got an acronym already. Blocked Burnham, bruised, battered, but determined to bite on. No, but then you look like a martyr, right? Well, I mean, that's the thing. I think there could be huge power for Andy Burnham and the sort of, oh, well, I tried. But those terrible people blocked me. And forevermore, he could become the vessel into which people's forlorn hopes of a new softer left Labour are poured into forevermore. I mean, you know, I was just thinking earlier about the David Miliband situation. Yes, he fought Ed Miliband for the leadership. And yes, he lost by a whisker. But ever since he lost by a whisker, there's been a whole kind of cohort of people in the Labour Party who've had this sort of all this watifery. Oh, if only David had won, and if only this, and if only that. Now, the corollary to that, of course, is well, if he couldn't win a campaign in his own party, would he have been able to convince the country? Who knows? We never will. But if Burnham is blocked, you know, you might have this sort of parallel universe. Ah, well, if Andy had been allowed to run, oh, well, if Andy was here.

[00:20:26] Speaker 1: So and there's another bit of this as well, which is in the mix, in all of this is undoubtedly Morgan McSweeney.

[00:20:32] Speaker 2: Yes.

[00:20:33] Speaker 1: So if you are Morgan McSweeney, who was praised at running campaigns within Labour. Correct. Yes. Then you must, I mean, wasn't praised by you and me.

[00:20:42] Speaker 2: But yes, no. Yeah, well, Andy, he was the campaign director on an absolutely thumping majority.

[00:20:49] Speaker 1: And he led reforms and everything. But would you not already have had two envelopes in your mind? Envelope A, we we block him. Yes. Envelope B, we don't. They must have wargamed the outcomes for block and not block.

[00:21:05] Speaker 2: I'm yes, I'm sure they will have done.

[00:21:08] Speaker 1: And they know what they're going to do already is what I'm saying. Even though they haven't met.

[00:21:12] Speaker 2: Probably. I mean, why not? Well, well, I suppose so Starmer's allies probably know what they want to do. Yeah. The question is, even if that inner core of the NEC are willing to go along with it or not, because with people like Lucy Powell, Sadiq Khan, Angela Rayner out there saying he should be allowed to run. It's hard. You know, every time somebody who has a big following says that, including Lucy Powell, deputy leader of the party, it becomes harder for Starmer's allies to do that. I have to say at five, just after half five on Saturday, allies of Starmer sort of think that that is what is being suggested, that that is what will probably happen is that he will be blocked. But I just I don't know, there's risk everywhere.

[00:21:56] Speaker 1: It would be interesting for newscasts if we took rival positions. And I feel that he won't be blocked. And I feel he won't be blocked because then you can you can look as a prime minister, you can look like you support a plurality of views in your governing party.

[00:22:12] Speaker 2: Okay, well, just for fun, I'm going to say the opposite. And we'll find out tomorrow. I think he will be blocked for the kind of brutal truth that Keir Starmer and his team beyond all else want to stay in power. So why on earth would they invite the fox into the hen house that make will make that harder for them? But we don't know. I think we'll know by tomorrow's newscasts. And the implications for if he is blocked, though, could be the really tricky bit. Shall we speak to Gemma Bolton, who's on the fabled Labour NEC? I think we can speak to her now. Gemma, can you hear us? I can hear you.

[00:22:45] Speaker 4: Hi, thanks for being here.

[00:22:46] Speaker 2: No, not at all. It's great to have you with us. And we've probably sounded a bit breathless while we've been trying to go through all the eventualities. So Gemma, you sit on the big NEC, but you are not on the inner core of the group that's actually going to be making this decision, right?

[00:23:00] Speaker 4: Somewhat of a debate. Basically, yes, I'm on the full NEC. But they have tried to take all decisions back behind closed doors into the NEC officers group, which is a small group. And it is of overwhelmingly supporters of the current leadership.

[00:23:16] Speaker 2: Why do you think then they are keeping member representatives and others out of the decision?

[00:23:22] Speaker 4: That's the big question. I think that there is a lot of control freakery within the top of the Labour Party, pretty much ever since Starmer came to power. I think if they block him, it will be seen as a huge act of weakness. He's an incredibly popular candidate. He's a popular mayor. He's popular with the public and with members. And I don't think that they want to take that decision to the members. I mean, we've seen again and again, them removing party democracy from the party over the last sort of five years now, councillor deselections, stitch ups for selections for Starmerite candidates. And unfortunately, the party is more increasingly taken out of the hands of the members. I mean, that's why we're seeing such a drop in our membership as well.

[00:24:08] Speaker 1: Well, there was a democratic test before and Andy Burnham didn't pass it in the Labour Party, did he? And I wonder what you think is going to happen. It sounds like you want him to run, but do you think he will be blocked, Gemma?

[00:24:20] Speaker 4: Oh, I mean, that's a number of years ago under very different conditions with very different candidates and former leaders, obviously a very successful politician. He's been the mayor of Greater Manchester, popular mayor of Manchester for a number of years. And as we said, he's got a huge favorability rating. And unfortunately, if we compare that to the Prime Minister at the moment, his is incredibly, incredibly poor.

[00:24:45] Speaker 1: And just to the other point, do you think he will be blocked, Gemma?

[00:24:49] Speaker 4: I hope not. I do really, really strongly believe that it should be for the members to decide. It's also really essential that we have the strongest candidate possible coming into this, this by-election, where it will potentially be just before the May elections. If we lose this and we could lose to the right wing parties like Reform, we could lose to a left wing party like, to the left of us like the Greens. And if we lose that, we're going to be on the back foot for that local elections. And if we win, it would be on the front foot and we'll be in a really strong position. And we really need the strongest candidate possible. I mean, who can we say stronger than a successful mayor of the region, the constituencies in?

[00:25:26] Speaker 2: Gemma, do you think he'd be a better leader than Keir Starmer?

[00:25:29] Speaker 4: I think that Keir Starmer has been a pretty abominable leader of the party, unfortunately. So I think there's quite a few people who would have done a better job than him. We've seen complete flip-flopping backtracking on a range of issues, some really horrific policies with fuel allowance, two child benefits they had to roll back on. So I think that's quite a low bar to be asking that question, unfortunately.

[00:25:53] Speaker 2: So Burnham would be better?

[00:25:54] Speaker 4: Well, yes.

[00:25:55] Speaker 2: Gemma, thanks so much for talking to us. It's been a really busy afternoon. It's great to have you with us on Newscast. Hope to have you again soon. Thanks very much for your time.

[00:26:03] Speaker 1: Thank you.

[00:26:04] Speaker 2: How interesting to hear a serving member of the Labour Party's ruling body say that Keir Starmer's leadership has been abominable. Her word, not ours. Abominable, which just goes to show that what this is really about, this whole hoo-ha, ha-hoo, is about deep unhappiness in the Labour Party at how the government has been performing. Of course, in political parties, you can always find people who moan about the leadership, that is bread and butter. But to use a phrase like abominable is really quite something. Interesting, just in the last few minutes, Ed Miliband, a cabinet minister, has said on stage at the Fabian conference that he hopes Andy Burnham will be allowed to run and that the people of Gorton, the constituency party of Gorton and Denton should be able to choose their candidate. So look, what might happen is even if Keir Starmer's allies want to block him, if you've got more and more senior figures saying, let Andy run, is Keir Starmer going to have his knees cut off by his own cabinet?

[00:27:10] Speaker 1: Because I was just thinking there will be newscasters who found what Gemma Bolton said to be very strong from someone who is in the Labour Party and on the National Executive Committee of that party. It is a sign of the pickle that they're in, if this is the strength of opinion on the day of the actual decision, Andy Burnham's decision at five, right up to the wire.

[00:27:34] Speaker 2: It's a real mess, I have to say, and whether or not Andy Burnham wanted this to be the moment where he had a chance to go for it and decided or felt he had to go for it, that's kind of irrelevant. This is the situation that they are in now and there is risk all around. And knowing how the Labour Party tends to handle its internal issues, it might be that everyone ends up getting in one way or another punched in the face.

[00:28:04] Speaker 1: Karen in Spain is a newscaster. Does the team think that politics now is too much about personality and competition between personalities and too much about how quickly can we change that person for another? It seems to me that so much of news reporting is taken up with will he won't he challenge the leader speculation. Is this indicative of the instant gratification that we see now in society, where there's no staying power, just to give us instant results or you're out mentality very much like a football manager.

[00:28:31] Speaker 2: I think two things are true. I think one, the pace of news now is incredibly quick and quicker than it used to be. So I think things flame up and burn out faster than they did, partly because of these things, partly because of the media landscape and the world that we live in. I think what's also true is that politics has always been about personality, because it is about human beings. It's about who can persuade you of their argument, whether that's in your own party or persuading you and me as normal voters, that you really deserve to be the person for whom you'll put a little cross in the box with your stubby little pencil.

[00:29:04] Speaker 1: But just on Karen's point, yeah, if growth returns, and the current Labour government gets what it wants, which is falling inflation, cut in interest rates, growth, then you could argue that those things matter as much as personality, to Karen's point, the problem is when the wheels are wobbling. It's people ask where the mechanic and the driver is.

[00:29:25] Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And there are serious people in the Labour movement who point to Andy Burnham and go, you know what, he is not the guy. He has been on such a political journey. You know, a former cabinet minister, a very senior person in the movement once described Andy Burnham to me with some fondness and said he's a lorry on ice. You know, he doesn't keep his position. He swerves all over the place. And he is not seen by everybody in the Labour Party as being the solution to their fairly dire situation. You know, there's a reason that he didn't win the leadership in 2010. There's a reason he didn't win the leadership in 2015. And also, there are lots of reasons why he, by most people's estimation, has made a great success of being the mayor of Greater Manchester. You know, there is nothing inevitable at all, about him arriving in Westminster, being able then to challenge Keir Starmer, and then winning and then making a better fist of it. And there is, as I think we say every single weekend, whatever the dramas, there's absolutely a scenario where Keir Starmer stays in power, the economy turns, the world maybe calms down a bit, things improve, energy prices come down, inflation comes down, people cheer up a bit, reform loses its kind of frothy momentum that it's had, the right keeps fighting amongst themselves. And actually, things look incredibly different in 12, 18, 24 months time. But the reason I suppose, Karen, and I hope we haven't been doing it too breathlessly today, the reason that we talk a lot about those personalities, is because the government's a very unhappy place, and Labour is a very unhappy party. So we're reporting on what they're talking about, which is how the hell are they going to get themselves out of this mess? And does that or does that not require a change at the top? And like it or not in Downing Street, and of course, they don't like it at all. There are many sitting MPs who think nothing is going to change unless there's a different name above the door. So have you been living under a rock in the last 24 hours?

[00:31:41] Speaker 1: No, I have not.

[00:31:42] Speaker 2: So what has been the biggest story in town apart from Andy Burnham's shenanigans?

[00:31:48] Speaker 1: Well, I think it's the US President scorning the input of NATO countries in Afghanistan, including the British Armed Forces, and the hundreds who died. It was taken very badly when he said that they, that's NATO's allies, don't really help us very much. And in Afghanistan, they hadn't gone very near the front line.

[00:32:09] Speaker 2: And of course, actually, the truth is 457 UK soldiers died in Afghanistan. American and British soldiers served side by side for many, many years. And there was universal condemnation, including unusually from Keir Starmer. Even Prince Harry put a statement out late yesterday, condemning the American President's remarks. So there's a very unusual, almost universal British pushback to Donald Trump to say, this is not okay. You have offended people. This is outrageous, and pretty much universal condemnation from the political class and all the papers and many members of the public too.

[00:32:48] Speaker 5: You know, they'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that. And they did, they stayed a little back, a little off the front lines.

[00:32:55] Speaker 6: So I consider President Trump's remarks to be insulting, and frankly, appalling.

[00:33:01] Speaker 2: However, in the last hour, so at around five o'clock, UK time, Donald Trump has had a change of heart.

[00:33:11] Speaker 1: The great and very brave soldiers of the United Kingdom, he's written on Truth Social, will always be with the United States of America.

[00:33:20] Speaker 2: 457 died, many were badly injured, and they were among the greatest of all warriors. The UK military with tremendous heart and soul is second to none except for the USA. We love you all and always will. President Donald J. Trump. So a change of heart from the White House having caused enormous offence. But there's also another developing story out there with another shooting on the streets of Minneapolis that I suspect we'll talk about on tomorrow's newscast.

[00:33:49] Speaker 1: Yes, the Minnesota Governor Tim Walz has said ICE agents have shot dead another person. So we do see, just to round up the two things coming together, we saved the newscast to go into the Andy Burnham coverage that we could, but at the same time, it now means we can report a change of words, perhaps a change of heart by President Trump on whether or not allies helped America at the front line. And he has said that the great and very brave soldiers of the United Kingdom will not be forgotten.

[00:34:21] Speaker 2: And I wonder if this is why. So a message has just popped through from a Downing Street spokesperson saying the Prime Minister spoke to the President of the United States, Donald Trump, this afternoon. He raised the brave and heroic British and Americans who served side by side. The call is said to have been positive. So whether that message on Truth Social is a product of Keir Starmer expressing displeasure to Donald Trump, or whether it was Truth Social telephone after or telephone Truth Social, but there is obviously from the White House some attempt to make it up.

[00:34:57] Speaker 1: Well, I think it might be time to say we will pause there.

[00:35:00] Speaker 2: I think let's pause there because we have been gassing on for quite a long time now, but it was a very exciting political drama. Not that this is the important thing, the drama isn't the important thing. These are our big tectonic plates of our politics moving around the place.

[00:35:13] Speaker 1: Maybe people listen to us on double speed. What, me on double speed? No, not you, us. Maybe when they look at the length of it in the timeline. I think I'm just going to listen on triple speed.