Debate grows over banning social media for under-16s (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: This has been an experiment designed by addiction specialists that has been unleashed on vulnerable people.

[00:00:07] Speaker 2: Does the panel think banning social media for under-16s is a good idea and will work?

[00:00:14] Speaker 3: Right, so Australia's already banned it, France is looking close to banning it, and the government is consulting on possibly banning it amongst a number of other things. Jo?

[00:00:26] Speaker 4: So, I think this is a really interesting question. I think that we can easily fall into a trap of debating should we just ban children from social media. But that doesn't cover conversations around actually how do we make sure that we remove, you know, pornographic and particularly extreme pornographic content from social media. How do we regulate gambling adverts, you know, how do we deal with racism, homophobia and other forms of hate speech, right?

[00:00:55] Speaker 3: But given that the question is should we ban social media for under-16s, do you think we should or we shouldn't?

[00:01:00] Speaker 4: No, but the point I'm trying to make is I think the question is much broader than that. There is an issue, you know, if you set up a TikTok account in the profile of a teenage boy, it takes 30 minutes before extreme misogynistic content is promoted to that user. So what I'm saying is I don't think simply banning social media for a particular age group is the issue. It is why do we have platforms that have become so unregulated, that are controlled by algorithms, that are determined to promote damaging content. And essentially, you know, we've handed over the regulation or lack of any regulation around what is appropriate to kind of billionaire oligarchs who buy social media platforms. That's the issue and they are driving agendas. And I don't think it's as simple as just saying we ban it for a group. But there's a much bigger conversation around who is driving opinion, who is driving content and why we have allowed these online spaces to become unregulated. And bear in mind, people are making money from this, right? People upload this incredibly divisive and incredibly extreme content to monetize it. We saw Elon Musk severely playing politics in America, generating lots of money, driving opinion in certain ways. I think it's a much bigger question than just do we ban under 16-year-olds?

[00:02:24] Speaker 3: So, Douglas, presumably this is something the government is considering, because although you've got the Online Safety Act, I know you had some success with Grok in terms of its new defined pictures and getting a row back on that. But I assume the government is looking at it because there's just so much of this stuff that Jo's talking about that actually the only way to try and sort it out may be simply just to ban it.

[00:02:46] Speaker 5: So, honestly, my sense is this conversation is happening pretty much everywhere in the country. It's happening around the kitchen table and in families and living rooms across the country. We had a conversation about it at the Cabinet on Tuesday morning. Without breaching Cabinet confidentiality, one of my colleagues said, if the content that arrives on a kid's phone was posted through the Post and you could open up and look at it, would any of us as parents want our kids to see that? I think in addition to that very basic point, one of our real challenges is how do you parent effectively? We wouldn't leave our kids to wander about a strange city to meet an unknown stranger, and yet that's exactly what can happen with social media through their phones when they're sitting in their bedrooms. So I think we have a responsibility to look at this. Formally, we're having a consultation that will run for three months. The Prime Minister has already spoken to Prime Minister Albanese where there's been a ban in Australia. But I would also pick up the point in terms of the algorithms. The truth is it's an unfair fight between the human brain and these algorithms. They are literally designed to be addictive. And if you look at what they are promoting just now, there's a lot of talk about the attention economy. They grab our attention. With the development of AI, we're moving from the attention economy to the connection economy. You look at how many people are already using chat GPT and other forms of AI for counselling for some of their deepest and more personal questions. I think we have a deep responsibility to act, because if you look at the coincidence of the use of smartphones, the rise of algorithms, and the explosion of mental health problems amongst our young people, I think there's a real-time experiment that is going pretty badly wrong right now. And governments, not just here in the UK, but right around the world, are trying to figure out how we can act and get this right. So my sense is the question is, how do we get this right? How do we make sure that those companies are regulated effectively? And how do we give our children their childhoods back? And I think that's something that you would expect us to be looking at.

[00:04:55] Speaker 3: The man in the black top there. Yes, you.

[00:04:58] Speaker 6: So, in reference, you've discussed banning social media for under-16s, and you've touched on artificial intelligence, and we've seen in this month of January with XAI and Grok, and it's disgusting, frankly, undressing of women and the damage it's done in that regard. Do you think that there needs to be greater safeguards in relation to artificial intelligence? And in fact, do you think this plan should be extended to under-16s in regards to artificial intelligence?

[00:05:26] Speaker 3: What, not allowing under-16s to access AI? Konstantin? On both things?

[00:05:33] Speaker 1: I think, actually, surprisingly, a lot of sense has been spoken on this so far. My wife has become, in relation to our son, a complete screen Nazi. He hasn't seen a tablet or a phone, and I don't think will for some time.

[00:05:46] Speaker 3: How old is your son?

[00:05:47] Speaker 1: My son is about to be four, but I don't think he'll be seeing those things for ages. I've been in favour of banning phones from schools. I think there's plenty of evidence now, as Douglas says, that this has been an experiment designed by addiction specialists that has been unleashed on vulnerable people, which is what all children are in that respect. And I think the evidence is very clear that if you are a parent that takes a phone away from a child, they react as an addict would to having the drug withdrawn. That is the level of addiction it's causing. So I think it is a very serious issue. And by the way, I agree about there's obviously terrible content that gets shown to people on all kinds of platforms, and that's an issue. But that isn't the only damage that's being done, even when they're engaging with relatively innocuous content, the addictiveness of it. Even when you're looking at normal things for 10 hours a day, because you can't stop it, that's not a good thing. So absolutely, I would ban phones in schools, and I'd actually start there, because of the impact that's having. And then social media, the issue with this is how do you implement it, because then it means you have to get every single person to verify their identity, and there's privacy issues to do with that. And of course, globally, there are people who would have to verify their identity. If you're a freedom activist in Iran, you've got to submit your passport to Facebook or X, and now you get hacked, and now you get exposed. There's a lot to do with the implementation of this. But the broad thrust of it, absolutely ban phones in schools, and social media is not good for kids. We know that now, and we've got to be sensible about it.

[00:07:22] Speaker 3: And what about this point about AI, because you're taking it much broader, aren't you?

[00:07:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I don't know that – look, children should be getting supervised Internet access. It should be supervised. And I think the one thing I would say as well is we've discussed the failures of government all night tonight, and I don't think that's likely to change in the next couple of years. So as parents, I think what we should actually be doing is taking way more responsibility and saying, I, as a parent, am going to design the way that my children interact with the Internet in a way that is going to be good for them, because they will need to. I mean, AI is a powerful tool, and they need to learn how to use it, not least because when we're older, they'll be able to show us what to do on the Internet. So we need to have our children be able to use the technology, but I think there's such a thing as age appropriateness, and Internet access has to be supervised for children under a certain age. I think it's a no-brainer, really. And this is where the Conservative Party is at now.

[00:08:15] Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, the question was, should social media be banned for under-16s? Our position is, yes, it should. Very simple, very straightforward. That's been Kevin's position. It wasn't originally the Prime Minister's. He has now announced this consultation, so hopefully there'll be another U-turn. But I think the thing is there are just sometimes occasions when it really helps – I've had four children – it really helps for parents and for families to have that leave from central government, because you're right, these algorithms, they are designed to create addiction, let's be honest.

[00:08:50] Speaker 3: And what do you say, James? I mean, there are some online safety campaigners, there's charities like the NSPCC, for example, they're saying that a ban is the wrong solution, that actually it would push children to using online spaces that are even less safe. Do you have any truck with that argument?

[00:09:06] Speaker 7: I see where they're coming from, and that would be a concern. But I think that, you know, you have to start with the ban to have that enforced. There are going to be other technological questions that come along with this. I think you're talking about what's called the dark web. Understood. So, you know, you have to work with the companies, but ultimately there has to be a clear direction from the centre about what we think is the right thing to do. These children we're talking about, our position is, ban them from social media because it's harmful to them. Jo, we've got about 15 seconds left.

[00:09:36] Speaker 4: Yeah, I just think this is kind of epitomising what I'm saying, which is an easy fix is to just ban under-16s. I think there's a much bigger discussion to be had about the dangers of the algorithm and what we see online.