Gisèle Pellicot: Why shame must change sides (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Giselle Pellicot was the woman at the centre of the biggest rape trial in French history. Her husband drugged and raped her and brought at least 70 men into their home in order to rape her too. She made the remarkable decision to let the world know who she was, waiving her legal right to anonymity just before the trial of her rapist began, because, she said, shame must change sides. In her only UK TV interview, Madame Pellicot speaks publicly for the first time and she has the most incredible message of hope to share. Giselle Pellicot, the Newsnight interview. Can I take you to the autumn of 2020 when your life as you knew it changed forever? Your husband was arrested for the crime of filming underneath the clothes of three women in a supermarket. He told you what he had been caught doing and that he'd had his phone and computer seized. How did you react to that?

[00:00:59] Speaker 2: When I saw that he had changed, I asked him if everything was okay. And that's when he told me that he had done something wrong. He had taken two pictures of two or three women in skirts. So, of course, he started crying and saying, I don't want to lose you. I think his obsession has always been to lose me in his life. So, there, he promises me that it will be a lesson for him and that he is not ready to start again. So, I tell him that I will keep that for myself. I will not tell my children about it. That will be a secret. But, of course, there will be no next time because I will leave. I will find out on November 2nd the extent of what he could have made me go through for ten years.

[00:01:35] Speaker 1: And it was at the police station that you discovered what had happened. An officer requested that you, both of you, come to the station. He talked to you and your husband separately and asked you questions like what your husband's character was like, what was a typical evening, if you liked to entertain, if you were into swinging. He then informed you that your husband had been taken into custody. He said he was going to show you some photos that you wouldn't like. Can I ask, Madame Pellico, what you saw when you looked at those images?

[00:02:12] Speaker 2: I see two or three photos, but I don't recognise myself in those photos. Because this woman is like dead on her bed. There are men next to her. I don't understand who these men are. I don't know them. I have never met them. And there, it's a deflagration. I am in such a state. It's like a tsunami. I took some time to realise it. I think I started to realise it once I got home. When I called my friend because I was asked not to stay alone, I told him, Dominique is in custody, he raped me and made me rape. That's when I say the word rape after five hours of interrogation. I realise it, I put the words on Mr Pellico's crime.

[00:02:55] Speaker 1: It was the officer who had said to you, 53 men came to your home and raped you. That moment, it must have been devastating. It must have been as though you're plunged into a parallel universe, perhaps.

[00:03:14] Speaker 2: I realise when he gives me the number of 53, there will be many more, we will discover that there are many more, but they have not been stopped. There are 20 or 30 who are still wandering in nature today. I don't understand everything that is happening. I say to myself, it's impossible. I say to myself, it's impossible that this man with whom I shared my life after so many years has been able to commit all these horrors. I say that my life is a field of ruins. Everything collapses, I've lost everything. There is nothing left for me. It's just my children who will arrive the next day. It's the descent to hell, in fact. It's really the descent for me, but also for my children. It's a totally destroyed family. We are pulverised in horror, in fact.

[00:03:55] Speaker 1: The police found two photos of your daughter Caroline on his computer. Asleep, in bed, taken by him. Caroline believes her father abused her. He said he hasn't. Can I ask what you believe?

[00:04:13] Speaker 2: What Caroline is going through today is extremely painful and her suffering really upsets me. There is this incestuous look on her daughter, of course, which poses problems. There is also this doubt that he will condemn her to a perpetual hell. She has filed a complaint today against her father. I hope she will get the answers. At the moment, I support her. We have been reuniting for a while now. She called me just before Christmas. But for my daughter, it's the descent to hell as well.

[00:04:43] Speaker 1: And it puts a men's strain on your relationship between you and your daughter. Can I ask how you are?

[00:04:50] Speaker 2: It is wrong to think that such a tragedy brings together a family. We have taken a lot of time to rebuild ourselves. Everyone can rebuild themselves. Caroline needed time because she is in hatred and anger. Something that I don't have. I have neither hatred nor anger. I had this feeling of betrayal and indignation towards Mr. Pellicot. But I am built like that. It is in my DNA to function like that. Caroline is different. And it is true that it took us time to move each of us aside. Today, we are trying to calm down one another. And I hope that we will be able to do that. We are on the right path to healing, all together.

[00:05:32] Speaker 1: You were actually angry with yourself that you hadn't noticed anything in the nine years at least that he was drugging you with his own anxiety and insomnia medication. Poisoning your glass of wine or your food in the evening. Why were you angry with yourself?

[00:05:49] Speaker 2: Because I didn't realize anything. I didn't see anything. I think it was at the very beginning when he started to drug me. And I don't remember what I did the night before. And I told him, you won't drug me. It was by chance. And when I saw him collapse in tears, I immediately thought that there could be something that didn't stick because I have an excellent memory. I remember a lot of things. And I didn't remember at all what I had done the night before.

[00:06:12] Speaker 1: What you also didn't know at the time is that as well as drugging you, he was giving you a very powerful muscle relaxant so that your body would slacken and dilate, which is why you believe you never felt pain the day after being raped.

[00:06:32] Speaker 2: So sorry Gertrude measured you to see how painful and startling this was for me. I was feeling sorry for my body, because it did not feel like I waswritten down when I planned to abuse him. And it was hard for me to face you, because she was dead. And I knew that I can't do it. And that is why I was betrayed against Gertrude's family, against myself. And then Gertrude said to me that you have some dummiesboyanganine and some fascia problems, and I was worried and distressed. And I was Woon Foon. I was sacrificed on the Théâtre du Vice. I was a martyr woman who was given to all these individuals. Knowing that there was one who was a member of the VIH, it's a good thing that I didn't have this VIH. I think there were connections somewhere up there that protected me because I'm really a survivor.

[00:07:21] Speaker 1: The question you will have asked yourself over and over is why? You write, he had wanted to force an insubmissive woman into submission. In the end, you say you were punished for saying no to his fantasies. Is that an explanation for what he did, for why he did it?

[00:07:42] Speaker 2: I think so. Yes, because he would have liked me to practice exchangeism and I always refused this kind of practice because I am a public woman and it was out of the question to go to this kind of club. So I think he had found the parade by subjugating me. That's what he said, I submitted an insubmissive woman because in my couple, I was not at all an insubmissive woman. On the contrary, I always worked. He always shared household chores. We have always been a fairly modern couple, even if we got married in the 70s. So all this, I think he had found the parade. He subjugated his fantasies by subjugating me chemically.

[00:08:20] Speaker 1: You made the remarkable decision to let the world know who you are, to waive your legal status. You had a legal right to anonymity which meant the trial of all these men would be opened up to the public and the media and everyone would know who you were. Why did you choose to do that?

[00:08:38] Speaker 2: When I made the decision to oppose huis-clos, I wanted shame to change sides. Because for more than four years, I carried this shame and I found it was a double punishment for the victims and a suffering that was inflicted on oneself. And I said to myself, if I had had the right to anonymity, if I had been able to do it, all the victims could have done it. And I am convinced of that. They must not lose their trust. They must dare to make their trial public. That is very important. It is also a way of rebuilding oneself. Shame must be carried out by the accused, but not by the victims.

[00:09:14] Speaker 1: You had never watched the videos Dominique Pellicot had recorded of you plunged into this deep sleep and being raped. You felt that seeing them would be like being raped all over again. When you did watch them, can I ask, what did you see?

[00:09:32] Speaker 2: I did not see that. I could hear myself swelling. That was unbearable for me. But there are not really two words to define what I saw. For me, they were beasts. They were not humans.

[00:10:06] Speaker 1: How did you feel about the prospect of the court and the world's media viewing them?

[00:10:12] Speaker 2: I had prepared myself for that. That is why I took a lot of time to make this decision. Because, as I said, I was so ashamed of what they had done to me. And I think that most victims... You were ashamed. You were ashamed. Before I made the decision, yes, before I stood up against Biclos, of course I was ashamed. Because I absolutely did not want to be seen. And I think that all victims are ashamed of having been raped. That part of you, it gave you life, in fact. And I did not want to be seen like that at all.

[00:10:45] Speaker 1: What do you want to say to victims of sexual violence around the world?

[00:10:50] Speaker 2: That they are never ashamed. They are not guilty of anything. That is very important.

[00:10:59] Speaker 1: I want to ask you about a couple of other elements of the trial. The initial decision of the presiding judge, who ruled that journalists and members of the public wouldn't be allowed to see the videos Dominique Pellico had filmed of you being raped for reasons of decency. And defence lawyers didn't want the word rape to be used in order to preserve the presumption of innocence of their clients. One defence lawyer suggested sexual relations. The judge suggested sex scenes.

[00:11:29] Speaker 2: Yes, I struggled when I came to the bar because I said at one point, I don't want to hear about sex scenes anymore. I said, these are rape scenes. In fact, it was really banal, the scenes we saw, etc. No, certainly not sex scenes. Sex scenes are when you are consenting. But rape scenes are something else. These are crime scenes.

[00:11:51] Speaker 1: The court found 47 victims of sexual violence, found 47 of the men guilty of rape, two guilty of attempted rape, two guilty of sexual assault. You mentioned earlier, there are some men, dozens of them, who couldn't be identified from the videos, who are walking free. They could be drugging and raping other women now.

[00:12:15] Speaker 2: And it's true that it's terrifying to say that they are in nature, that they are certainly married, family members too, and that they can start over.

[00:12:23] Speaker 1: During the investigation into what Dominique Pellico had subjected you to, police discovered he had tried to rape a 20-year-old woman, an estate agent, back in 1999. And he eventually admitted to that. He was also questioned about the murder of a young woman in 1991, a 23-year-old estate agent called Sophie Naam, who was drugged, raped, strangled and stabbed to death while she was showing a client around an apartment. Do you believe your former husband could have killed her?

[00:12:59] Speaker 2: Yes, I believe so. I believe that the family of Sophie Naam, because I think that the mother has been waiting for this crime for years, I don't know how this woman can rebuild herself. She doesn't know who is really the culprit. And as for the young woman we call Marion, on this rape attempt, it's the same. I know that today she is the age of my daughter. Because you have to know that when he did this rape attempt, she was the same age as my daughter at the same time. And I don't know if there will be a trial regarding this young woman. I wish for her, so that she can be repaired.

[00:13:53] Speaker 1: Pellico was given the maximum jail sentence for what he did to you and for bringing men into your home and your daughter's home to rape you. 20 years in jail. Will you ever see him again?

[00:14:10] Speaker 2: I don't know if I will ever see him again. I don't know if I will ever see him again. But right in front of my eyes, I hope that he will be able to tell me the answers that I am still waiting for today. Especially about his daughter, and especially about the Colquhaises.

[00:14:36] Speaker 1: So you will go and see him in prison and ask him the questions that you want to ask?

[00:14:41] Speaker 2: Yes, I hope to do so, of course.

[00:14:44] Speaker 1: There has been an outpouring of support for you from people around the world. Let's talk more about those people, particularly women, who began to wait for you each day at the court and formed a guard of honour as you walked into the building and then applauded you as you left the building. How did that make you feel?

[00:15:07] Speaker 2: Their presence outside appeased for me what was happening inside this audience room. They gave me an incredible strength. And I think my story echoed their suffering. They also identified themselves with my story. The women I met, who were often victims, never dared to file a complaint. And a lot of them told me that today they would have this strength to file a complaint. And you wrote that the crowd saved you. Yes, because when you live in hell inside this audience room, because you are really humiliated, it hasn't changed much. Victims are always guilty, it's up to them to accuse them. So it's true that when I came out, these applause, it gives you a lot of strength to feel them and to see their name plastered on the walls of Avignon. That's what I explain, this name as an example and my story as an example. They gave me a lot of strength. Alone, I think it would have been difficult.

[00:16:08] Speaker 1: You say you have found love again. Some people may be surprised by that.

[00:16:13] Speaker 2: And I have always been turned towards others, towards the future. And I didn't think I would fall in love at all or even want to. But life put a man on my path, who has the same landmarks, the same values, and who also had a lot of trials in his life. And we have this chance. We fell in love like two teenagers when we weren't expecting it at all. So you see how life always gives you very, very beautiful surprises. It has given us a lot of colour in our lives too.

[00:16:39] Speaker 1: Madame Pellica, we wanted to show you these women who we spoke to from across France who wanted to give you this message.

[00:16:53] Speaker 3: What I would like to say to Gisèle Pellico is thank you for fighting. Thank you for being so brave. Thank you for talking so loudly about this tragedy. What I would like to say to Gisèle Pellico is to thank her for all the courage she gives to the victims.

[00:17:06] Speaker 4: You have put shame in the right place, on the backs of criminals, on the backs of justice, and you have allowed many women to reappropriate their history. Thank you for everything you have done for women in France, for justice to advance, and for women all over the world. She did something very important. She opened the courtroom to the whole world so that they can witness the horror of her story.

[00:17:29] Speaker 5: Thank you to the new generation for raising the whistle. It has allowed us to speak to our loved ones and to our families.

[00:17:37] Speaker 4: Thank you for this fight on behalf of all the girls, including mine. Thank you very much for this fight and for everything it will trigger later.

[00:17:46] Speaker 5: Congratulations for your courage and your tenacity. As women, we are proud of you. Thank you for all the women who have not had the courage to take this step, and also for your strength.

[00:17:59] Speaker 3: You are an admirable woman. You have all my support and all the support of all the women. Your courage, we are here to support you. Life is beautiful, madam. What I would like to say to Gisèle is that women are proud of you.

[00:18:13] Speaker 1: Thank you. Wow. It's very strong. And hearing their voices, seeing their faces, makes you emotional.

[00:18:24] Speaker 2: Yes, it touches me a lot because these are the faces that I met during the trial. I saw them glued together. I saw their collage. I saw the banderoles where it was written Gisèle. A rape is a rape. They were really exceptional. I am not a radical feminist, but I am in my own way.

[00:18:42] Speaker 1: Madam Pellico, if I may, I feel like you are one of the strongest women I have ever met. There is a life force in you. Where does that strength come from? I know that you received a personal letter from her mother, from Her Majesty the Queen, Queen Camilla. And both she and you have given us permission to share the words with our audience. I'm going to read the words if that's okay with you. Dear Madam Pellico, having followed the trial for the past 15 weeks, I very much wanted to write to express my heartfelt admiration for the courage, grace and dignity with which you have faced the horrific crimes committed against you. You have inspired women across the globe and in so doing, you have created a powerful legacy that will change the narrative around Shane forever. Thank you for all that you have done. You are much in my thoughts and prayers. And I do hope you will now be able to rest and recover from this devastating ordeal. Camilla R. What did it mean to you to receive that letter? Thank you.

[00:20:15] Speaker 2: It was an honour for me to receive that letter. I didn't expect it at all. And it shocked me that this Queen could give me this letter. And I didn't expect it at all. I was surprised because it's true that my words touched the whole world, but I didn't expect at all to receive a letter from the Court of England. And that moved me, it shocked me and I was also very honoured to see that letter. Thank you.

[00:20:54] Speaker 1: I want to end by reading the final part of the closing statement of your lawyer. Stéphane Babineau told the Court this trial will be a part of the legacy for future generations. They will hear the name of Gisèle Pellicot, her courage, the price she paid, and the fact that she was able to do what she did for her country. She was able to do what she did for her country. She was able to do what she did for her country. She was able to do what she did for her country. She was able to do what she did for what she paid. He then turned to you and said I am sure, Gisèle Pellicot, that you did your job. You went beyond what we expected of you, and now passed the torch to others who are part of a fight you never chose but have embraced with your whole being. How do those words make you feel?

[00:21:41] Speaker 2: I'm still thrilled with tears today. I was always It's true, a vessel of responsibility, and I hope I have transmitted this message of hope to all the victims. I have transmitted the torch to them, and I hope that they will dare to speak today, and that if they have a trial one day, they will be able to open it to the public. I think that it will also help them to transform all this, all their suffering. They have to dare to do what I did, they can also have the strength to do it. Giselle Palico, thank you very much. And I thank you very much. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you.