Human-Centered Business Development for Lawyers (Full Transcript)

[00:00:01] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Zach and I'm Stephanie and this is episode 608 of the Lawyer's Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today I'm talking with Megan Sinise about the human side of marketing.

[00:00:15] Speaker 2: I like that. I don't know exactly what it is, but I like that.

[00:00:19] Speaker 1: Exactly. Now you got to listen to find out.

[00:00:22] Speaker 2: Yeah. Stephanie, I don't know how to say this exactly, but happy birthday early and also belated because as we're recording this, it's not quite your birthday, but as this comes out, it'll be the day after your birthday, right?

[00:00:39] Speaker 1: Yeah. 51, if you can believe it.

[00:00:42] Speaker 2: No, I can't.

[00:00:44] Speaker 1: I can't either. I don't feel old until suddenly, you know, something like my 30th, I think my 30th college reunion or something's coming up this spring and I'm like, what, how's that possible?

[00:00:55] Speaker 2: That'll do it. Yeah. And then when, you know, kids and nieces and nephews and the next generation start hitting these milestones that you're like, wait, I just did that. I just graduated from college. How are you? How are you graduating from college? Yeah. Well, okay. So speaking of birthdays, I remember coming to lawyerist and I think our company has always done a really good job. And I think this is important for, for firms of celebrating the people that work there. And I have multiple things from lawyers that I've gotten for my birthday that weren't extravagant. It wasn't, you know, something huge, but it was always very thoughtful stuff. And I got a book on making nachos because I love nachos. I have a, I have a specific little, it's just a, it's a mini pinata that I've had for years and years that had candy in it that was sent to me. But it's just like the little things that obviously I remember that the company has sent me multiple things for my birthday and like, I, I really appreciate that. And I don't know that we always think about that.

[00:02:12] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think the catcher on that one, cause I remember you joined the team and it was your birthday pretty soon after and we got you that nacho book and, and I think some nacho socks, I feel like. Yes.

[00:02:25] Speaker 2: I still have the nacho socks and I wear them to conferences. Yeah.

[00:02:29] Speaker 1: Yeah. So, but here's the, here's the little secret or trick because when you joined the team, we had you fill out a form that we just made up and it was like all about, all about you. Help us learn about you. And we asked you kind of some silly questions, you know, favorite food, what do you like to do? Do you have a team, a sports team that you root for? Right. We just ask some pretty, you know, non, like not invasive, but like, you know, it wasn't PHI.

[00:02:59] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:02:59] Speaker 1: Yeah. Like it was just like, how do we get to know Zach? And you forgot that you filled out that form. And so when the nacho socks, yeah, like, right. Like, and then when the nacho socks showed up, you were just like, what, how did you guys know? I love nachos. Yeah. We were like, oh, how did we know Zach? Well, we passed, we asked you in that form, but it was like, cause it is hard. Like how do you, cause that's the challenge. How do you get to know team members and know they have a secret love of nachos? And I guess my point is the good news for you is you don't have to go do a bunch of detective work. You can simply be intentional on day one about how do we start to get to know this team member so that we can, I mean, I think the, it even asked like, if you had charities that you support, cause maybe one day we want to give, you know, a chair, give a donation to a charity in your name. Like, wouldn't it be great to know if those are, if there's some causes that are near and dear to your heart. So it asked all kinds of questions like that, that allowed us to then be thoughtful when we do give gifts.

[00:04:07] Speaker 2: I love that one. And obviously you can translate that into working with your clients as well. Because the, to me, a lot of the moral of this story is like how delighted I was and always am at like, Oh, I mean, even though I know, like once I found out, Oh yeah, they, they asked me those questions already. Didn't make it any less delightful, you know?

[00:04:28] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:04:28] Speaker 2: So yeah.

[00:04:29] Speaker 1: I love that. So celebrate your people, you know, be intentional and build that, build those little processes into it because we're with our work friends for a, a lot of the day and we should try to celebrate them, make it, make it fun.

[00:04:47] Speaker 2: Well before we go off into your interview with Megan, happy belated birthday, Stephanie. I hope that you were able to be celebrated yesterday.

[00:04:56] Speaker 1: So thank you.

[00:04:57] Speaker 2: And now here's your conversation with Megan.

[00:05:13] Speaker 3: So hi, I'm Megan. I'm a former big law business developer turned marketing business development consulting for my company called Stage.

[00:05:23] Speaker 1: Hey Megan, I'm so excited to have you on today. Talking about everyone's favorite topic, right? Business development. I'm being a little, I mean, they know they need it that the sometimes they're like that I got to do it. Yeah.

[00:05:38] Speaker 3: I mean, I, I understand it's, it's not easy to professional services, lawyers, accountants, right there. They're one of the only kind of industries that have to get the business, bring it in the door, service the client at the same time. Right? So I saw the story about how my husband is in sales and he sells food to restaurants. So he cold calls people and now he has relationships and things like that, but he's not making the French fries. He's not delivering the French fries. He's just maintaining the relationship. And that's the piece that's so tricky for lawyers in particular, because you have huge amounts of billable hour requirements if you work in a big firm and it takes a lot of work to build relationships, to get to the point of pitching, to get to the point of getting work in the door and then maintaining that relationship. It's not easy. So now I, you know, I, if anything, I really understand that struggle of people rolling their eyes and groaning every time, every time the word business development is, is used.

[00:06:40] Speaker 1: Yeah. But I think too, and I know this is part of your platform. I think that also part of the reason we groan and moan is because we think we have to put on this salesperson hat and maybe enter into a persona that feels really uncomfortable and icky. And like, I know so many people are like, I don't want to go work a room at a networking event. You know, I don't want to do fill in the blank, whatever I think marketing and business development work is. And so what, what do you say to those folks? Cause I love your answer to this.

[00:07:13] Speaker 3: So my approach is that one size doesn't fit all and that you need to lean into the thing that feels comfortable for you and figuring out what that looks like. And I think a lot of us grew up in a way that networking is done, you know, on the golf course or over a really expensive cocktails. And if that's your thing, do that, right? But if that feels really uncomfortable for you, there are now new ways that you can lean towards connecting with people. And really that's the key point. It's about connecting so that you can be of service and so that you can help that contact. And sometimes it might be listening to their business challenges. And other times you're, as you're starting to build that relationship, it might simply be just listening to them and giving them a book recommendation or a restaurant recommendation. And that's how you become the trusted advisor. So it's leaning into the things that you like to do, particularly if you're going to be away from your friends and your family and your home, it's better to focus on the things that you want if you have to take time away.

[00:08:15] Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like when you do that, too, if I'm in an environment that I like and doing something I love doing, I'm going to show up differently, right? I'm just going to be more comfortable. I'm going to be myself. You might like me a little bit more because I'm not fidgeting, wondering, you know, feeling awkward if I'm in an uncomfortable environment.

[00:08:36] Speaker 3: Yeah. So many lawyers want to know what's the best practice, right? Like, tell me the best practice. What's the precedent? And they want to know to do it correctly and 100% the way that you're supposed to do it. And I don't know what's going on in that person's life or what you like to do. And so there are going to be times that you have to go to a big conference. And that's the time where we're saying, okay, if that's the case, then let's try to figure out what are the pieces of a big conference that you like? Is it the one-to-one connection? And if that's the case, then let's figure out how we can pre-connect with people beforehand so that you can reach out and say, hey, Stephanie, I'm going to be at this conference. You and I have only met virtually. I'd love to meet you in person. And that's ways that you can take something that's like really big and overwhelming and digest it down to something small so that you can show up as your best self.

[00:09:22] Speaker 1: I think that is such smart advice. It sounds so easy. When you say it, you're like, oh, of course, of course, that's what we should do. I mean, I think the hard part's in practice.

[00:09:32] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's we kind of spin out about, well, I see what other people are doing and it looks like they're having success and maybe I should be doing that. And law firms love to be kind of race to second, where like if that firm did, then I have to do it. And I don't think that's necessarily the best approach every single time. It's who do you want to be? How do you want to show up? How do you want to feel? Who do you want around you? And those are just like, you can just like live your life like that, but you can also incorporate that in terms of how do you want to feel in your business, particularly as if you are now able to direct flow of who's coming into you. I think that's the piece that a lot of partners, particularly in big law, kind of forget. You are actually in charge of who you bring in, what kind of clients you want to work with. And if you're going to go after people who love to sit and crochet with you, that's going to be way more enjoyable, which actually I'm using crochet because that's a real life example that I have a client who did and was able to do.

[00:10:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, same. I was reminding of remembering a story I know of an associate who, when I, he was kind of this pretty like shy, kind of reserved guy when we were in. And so I got to talking to him and I was like, what do you love doing? And suddenly he started talking to me about succulents. And he had a succulent collection. He loved planting them. He loved creating them. I don't know. There were also herbs and other like micro little plants. There was a name for it. He started talking about all this like lit up. And I was like, what if you invited three or four people, you know, and said, Hey, will you invite someone that, you know, I'm going to have a small gathering, a succulent party, if you will, where we're all going to learn about these plants and yeah, make a little thing. And I was like, but you know, you could invite a couple of friends, but then you ask them to bring someone and now you're in your element, you're doing something you love and it's a way to meet new people and have fun. And he just looked at me and was like, I could do that. That's allowed.

[00:11:39] Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, yes, there are no rules. Go do it. Yeah. I mean, he could even send those as gifts. I made this plant for you, right? Like that. If somebody made something for me, that would be, that's even better. Right. And sometimes like we're like the smaller, the better I've gotten such great success with sometimes sending like a personalized sticker or like a tiny little gift card or just like something that is not a throwaway. It's intentional and thoughtful, but that's showing that's also leaning into what we want our lawyers to do. We want people to know what it's like to work with them. So you could even argue to say with that associate and his planting that he takes a moment to think about the best conditions for that plant and what, how is that plant going to thrive? And there's so many ways that that can be translated into like literally into the legal work.

[00:12:34] Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. Cause I know, um, once you meet the people, I think where we're going is like, you got to continue to nurture, like, we'll use the plant really works here too. Right. You got to nurture that relationship. You got to, they're not going to, yeah, they're not going to meet you once and then send you a bunch of business probably. I mean, we know that it usually takes a little bit of time. And so then it's thinking about how you stay connected to that person. How do you keep showing up? And I think some people also struggle with that. I mean, we've all heard like, send them an article, you know, just sometimes I think the advice feels a little stale. Yeah. So what do you, what do you tell people? How do you keep that fresh?

[00:13:13] Speaker 3: Yeah. So that maybe not overboard on the budget over, well, and that's why, you know, as a, as a smaller business, right, a sticker, it's not a huge cost investment. And I have been pretty surprised with the reaction of people when we've sent something that is maybe in that two to $5 range, even, right? We've had a lot of, a lot of success, even with handwritten notes. And we've done a couple of campaigns on what we call off-cycle gifting. So we do something in the summer just so it stands out a little bit more. And then we, I love to try things myself because I don't want to, I think there's something kind of tone deaf about being a consultant who runs around and says like, here's the best practice and you should do this. And then they don't do it themselves. So I love to try things ourselves first and, and then say, Hey, like when I was in house at Big Law, this worked. And also I have to do the same thing. I have to get clients in the door. I have to service them. And I tried this approach for myself. It worked. Feel free to try it. It doesn't work for you. We'll do, we'll do something else. So like handwritten cards, like tiny thoughtful gestures is, is another way to stay top of mind. I mean, sending an article is still really helpful, but if you're telling the person why, right? So you're not just like blasting stuff out. It's not just a blast of client thought leadership. It would be more of, we talked about this, particularly at that conference that we just met, right? We just met at this conference and you mentioned this, you were interested in, we're just going to pick on the succulent person. You mentioned your interest in succulents. I just saw this article. It made me think of you. Here's the reason why. Right? So there has to be more intentionality and you're not going to then send them a succulent article every week because then that's overboard, but it's being intentional and then trying to set up another time to, to meet and to build that relationship. The number used to be anywhere between like five to 10 interactions before you got to a win. I actually have been seeing now that the numbers moved from 10 to 18 interactions. People are saying a win. I think it's a pitch. So if you've had 18 interactions with someone who you just met brand new to even be able to get to that kind of conversation about like what's top of mind for you. And I'm not suggesting you have to wait on the 18th time, right? It's just the general like sense. But that's all. I mean, that's a, that's a long, that's a long lead time. That's if you're doing it once a month, you're reaching out. It's, it takes a while to build, to build that relationship. And so I think people give up because they're not persistent or they're not disciplined or they forget and, and that's where business development can come in, right? And you can help remind that person and keep them accountable, but not in a way that's gonna shame people.

[00:16:07] Speaker 1: Then it's time to get to the pitch. I think this is also a place where lawyers struggle because they don't know how do I bring it up? How do I ask for business or how do I ask, you know, for business directly or referral, but depending on what, what kind of contact you're dealing with. And I'm just curious, you know, what advice you might give to some folks in that regard?

[00:16:28] Speaker 3: Yeah. So I've prepared so, so many pitches for, for lawyers in my previous lives and I worked in quite a few different big law capacity and it was always like this urgent, the pitching, I think you have to understand if it really is an opportunity. Is it an active opportunity? And there are times you just have to slap materials together and that's what happens. That's not what I recommend. What, what I think is helpful is to really figure out what the client is asking you for. And the deeper relationship you have with someone, the less salesy it becomes. But then is like, how can I help you? And so when I do my meet and greet conversations and now what I'm offering up to our clients is how can I help you? How can I support you? What do you need right now? I mean, you can think about what kind of question, how to turn that question so it feels authentic for you. But if you're asking like, what are you, what are you struggling with right now? It's kind of like a take on like, what keeps you up at night? And then ask them as once they've provided that answer, would it be helpful if I fill in the blank? Right? So if they're saying, oh, you know, I'm like, I have a lot of people returning over right now. Like so many people are leaving my company. Then you'd be like, oh, would it be helpful if I introduced you to our employment lawyer? They have this like great handbook on how to keep better retention. I don't know. Right. Or would it be helpful if I introduced you to our executive comp team? Because they'll be able to help you structure those packages as people are leaving.

[00:17:57] Speaker 1: And they say, yeah, actually, or no, no, actually, I don't need that at all.

[00:18:00] Speaker 3: What I do need is. And so I think a lot of people get nervous. And you're also presumed like you're presuming that you know what that person needs. So I'm going to go in with my entire firm, this is not to do, I'm going to go with my entire firm. And it's a 300 page PowerPoint deck, which again, I've done of every single thing and every single person's bio and every page overview. And no one's reading it. And it doesn't feel like it's custom or tailored. And so to the extent that people can ask questions, what would be helpful for you? Like, what are you really needing like right now? And then trust that there'll be another opportunity to bring in additional services. Not like, oh, I know you wanted a minivan, but like, did you also see our Hummers over here? Like, no, nobody wants that. So it's not just like selling for the sake of selling.

[00:18:50] Speaker 1: Again, it sounds so simple when you say it. And so you're just like, oh, yeah, that makes a ton of comment. That just makes a lot of sense. But I think we kind of get in our heads or we worry and we get all awkward and weird. So I love that you're just kind of making it so relatable and easy. Yeah, I think people get scared, right?

[00:19:09] Speaker 3: It can be scary if you don't know someone and you feel like this. There's also this like scarcity mindset, right? So if it's this is my only opportunity to be in front of this person, then how you're approaching the situation is going to feel differently than like, I'm going to use this to ask questions so I can come up with something that's really thoughtful and tailored for that one person. Even if it means a tiny piece of work right now, you have to trust that there will be another opportunity to bring in the rest of the firm. And I think people, you know, putting like RFP bids aside, right? There are times where people feel like they have to shove as many practice groups as possible into that one general counsel because it's a limited window. And I get that people are really busy. But if you make it that you listened and you're showing them how you care, then there will be an opportunity to show how you care again, right? And then the business development continues, right? It's not just a pitch and then you never see them again.

[00:20:07] Speaker 1: Makes sense. Well, let me shift gears just a little bit. One of our core values here for our team is stay curious. And so sometimes I like to ask people, what are you curious about right now or what are you learning? And, you know, it can be professional or personal, wherever you want to go with it, but.

[00:20:25] Speaker 3: Right before I popped on, I was in the process of building a chat agent, a chat GPT agent. So I'm trying to make sure that I'm staying up to speed on all the different things. We're a mean and lean team. So we need, you know, as many efficiencies as possible. So building an agent is new. That's new for me. My children keep me curious, right? Just in terms of like the things that they're doing. So I know a lot about travel soccer and drums right now because my son is taking drum lessons. My daughter's a travel soccer, so trying to stay open minded and read and all the things. I love it.

[00:21:03] Speaker 1: Well, I won't take us down a journey because I have I only have one kid who also is in travel soccer. Although now we're on the high school team and we have a game in a couple hours, a match and and also plays the drums. So gosh, we could sit here and chat for a long time. I know. Crazy that. See, we should hang out with your kids.

[00:21:22] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:21:23] Speaker 3: My son is seven. So he probably your your child could babysit my child. So I'll take that. He just started drums, which is which is really fun. And we bought him a mini drum kit. Do you have a drum kit in your house?

[00:21:41] Speaker 1: We do. It is very loud. In fact, Alex was just inviting the grandparents over, like, you should come and hear me drum. And we were joking because we're like, you don't even have to come in the house. You could just probably just stand outside. Just fine. It is. Yeah. I mean, I know, you know, you know, you hear drums and you think, of course, it's going to be loud. I don't think I appreciate it. Just how loud it was going to be. So now, luckily, Alex is old enough to stay by themselves. So when we leave the house, it's drum time. Ah, yeah, no, we're not quite there.

[00:22:12] Speaker 3: I'm the seven year old. But the drum teacher wears earplugs, which I find just like hilarious. Right. He's like, OK, it's time to put the earplugs in now. I should be bringing these. So, oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah. Are you going to drum? Do you drum then too? Do you like hop on the drum set?

[00:22:29] Speaker 1: For fun, just to irritate really more than I mean, she tried to teach me something the other night and then she was like, Mom, why don't you get this? I'm like, I don't know. It's harder than it looks, you know, but yeah, yeah, I love that. But they say lawyers, by the way, should go play musical instruments. It's good for our brains because it triggers a different part of your brain and actually can improve your your ability to practice law.

[00:22:52] Speaker 3: So there you go. We had a we had a partner who is a conductor of an orchestra group and on our show, on our podcast. And so we just like love sharing that story and composes music. And that was just like a great example of exactly what you're talking about. Yeah.

[00:23:14] Speaker 1: And good marketing opportunity. You could then they could invite people to their show. So yes. Well, Megan, if we'll make sure to put your information in our show notes, including your show. You have a podcast. But, you know, so if people are interested, why don't you tell us where we can find you and learn more?

[00:23:35] Speaker 3: Yes. So I'm going to be sharing around on LinkedIn. So you can find find me on on LinkedIn or they can go to our website, which is stage that guide. Awesome.

[00:23:45] Speaker 1: Well, thank you. It's been great talking to you. And I'm excited. I'm going to go try some of these techniques out myself and make marketing real.

[00:23:52] Speaker 3: Yeah. And then you can follow up and tell me how it went.