Munich: Zelensky urges unity as Europe steps up (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in his speech that Europe's unity is the best weapon against Russia's aggression.

[00:00:07] Speaker 2: There is no country in Europe that could rely only on its own technology and money to defend itself. In a full-scale war, no one would stand alone. That is why while we invest in interceptors and protection, Russia invests in breaking unity between all of us. Our unity with you, unity in Europe, unity in the Euro-Atlantic community. They want to break it. Why? Because our unity is the best interceptor against Russia's aggressive plans. The best one. And we still have it.

[00:00:50] Speaker 1: Volodymyr Zelensky there speaking in the last hour. Listening across to all of the speeches this morning is Kasia Medeira who is in Munich outside the security conference. Kasia, over to you, the watchword of today, unity.

[00:01:08] Speaker 3: Exactly that, unity. You're hearing that echoed by Volodymyr Zelensky. He's talking about a united Europe. You heard that again echoed by Sakhir Starmer. The importance of Europe coming together. And indeed, actually when we heard from Marco Rubio, everybody was waiting with bated breath. Is he going to go on the offensive? Is he going to be attacking as we saw from JD Vance last year? He was much more conciliatory in tone. But that underlying message is Europe, you've got to go it alone. You've got to pull up your sleeves and increase your dispense spending because ultimately the US is no longer the world policeman. That transatlantic, that world order is changing. So unity amongst the Europeans, we're very much hearing that from Zelensky as well. A lot to unpick though because there are undercurrents running through this. My guest is the Director General of the think tank, Roussi, Rachel Elohiss. It's great to have you with us. We heard Zelensky just moments ago giving that speech and once again he had to remind everybody that Ukraine didn't start this war.

[00:02:16] Speaker 4: He had to remind everybody that Ukraine didn't start the war and he also had to remind Europeans that Ukraine is fighting on their behalf. Every day that a Ukrainian falls over or dies, that's keeping the Russians away from the perimeter of NATO and the periphery of Europe. So it's really important that Europeans take that message and stop enabling Russian oil and gas to continue to flow and to fund the war and it's also very important that Ukraine is integrated into Europe, even if that's not NATO or EU membership. We need things like co-production, joint production on weapons, drones. I think that was the message he was trying to get across today. Ukraine can't continue to bleed for Europe forever.

[00:02:53] Speaker 3: And it's certainly something that was seen when he went to that factory, Ukrainian-German factory where they make drones that again are sent back to Ukraine. They can't have those in Ukraine because they know that they're going to be attacked. Ultimately, the threat of Russia very much there. Was that shown during Marco Rubio's speech at all?

[00:03:13] Speaker 4: Any mention of Russia in the Rubio speech was actually a bit absent and I'd say that Undersecretary of Defence for Policy in the Pentagon, Colby, similarly sort of talked around the Russia challenge or even the China challenge. They focused a bit more on the transatlantic relationship, something you'd hear more from traditional Republicans in terms of the importance of the transatlantic relationships, the importance, as you said, of Europe stepping up. But really, I think the undercurrent there is what are they really thinking with regard to Russia and China? I think Undersecretary Colby called Russia a manageable threat, which is not something that I think most Europeans on the front line would agree with.

[00:03:51] Speaker 3: And what was actually quite frustrating, Kaya Callas was speaking earlier, and when asked whether she thinks the Ukraine war will end, she said she hopes so. It's vague. We've got this conference of world leaders and yet it feels like pleasantries. It all feels very vague and I think tangible is coming out.

[00:04:12] Speaker 4: Yes, it is very frustrating, particularly if we think that so-called peace negotiations have been going on for a year now. We're really in no different place than we were a year ago. In fact, Russia has gained minimal ground, more Ukrainians are dead, more Russians are dead. It's really hard to see how this ends without, first and foremost, a ceasefire. And I heard President Zelensky speaking yesterday and he really stressed that in order for any sort of election to move forward or any sort of credible security guarantees to be put in place, the first step is actually not a peace agreement but a ceasefire. So let's try to start there.

[00:04:45] Speaker 3: And that's the issue, isn't it? Because Donald Trump is pushing hard for some kind of referendum for some kind of election by May in order to end the war by June. Is that in any way realistic?

[00:05:00] Speaker 4: I think it would be very difficult. Zelensky said last night that they probably need at least half a year to prepare for these elections. They're under martial law to some extent. There are Ukrainians living abroad who would want to have a voice in this. And so while it's tempting to try to push for a resolution to the Ukraine conflict, for example, before the US midterms in November, the conflict doesn't work that way. I think we need to be a bit more patient.

[00:05:26] Speaker 3: It's also important to stress at this conference we have been hearing another voice, quite a large Democrat contingency here. Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez also here. They're talking about the pushback. They're urging Europe to push back against the Trump rhetoric. Is that realistic given where we are? Because Trump right now is obviously the president.

[00:05:55] Speaker 4: I appreciate that they want to see Europe become a bit more vocal about its own needs and what it can achieve both with regard to Ukraine and NATO and European security and defence. But ultimately I think the resistance, and I say this as an American, I think ultimately any sort of resistance to any policies that they're unhappy with has to come from within the United States. We need to hear the American public stepping up. We need to hear bipartisan voices in Congress stepping up, as we did on Greenland. That policy became very unpopular, not just with politicians and the public, but with the market. So it's helpful if Europeans stand their ground, but it's more helpful if people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Gavin Newsom continue to speak with one voice on the Democratic side.

[00:06:37] Speaker 3: One thing that we did hear, something very, very concrete, was from Zakir Starmer a little bit earlier on. He announced today at the conference that the UK is going to deploy, the UK carrier strike group to the North Atlantic and high north in operation with the US, Canada and other NATO allies. That's something that is tangible. That's something that people can genuinely understand.

[00:06:59] Speaker 4: It's really, really encouraging and positive to see Prime Minister Starmer stepping up in this way. First, with regard to Ukraine, the UK has been a leader there, but also with regard to the North Atlantic. And now with regard to Europe, I think we heard a very strong message. I can't remember the quote, but he basically said the years of Brexit are over and the UK is going to be leaning into the relationship with continental Europe. I think that's very important, as well as the money behind it and the capabilities behind it, because European defence, as even von der Leyen said, is not going to happen without the United Kingdom as part of that. So we need to see more UK as the US leadership diminishes.

[00:07:37] Speaker 3: Rachel, as always, very good to get your thoughts, your analysis, because it's been another big day here at the Munich Security Conference. For the time being, thank you so much, Rachel. Director General of RUSI, the think tank, thank you so much. We'll let you get off to go back to your next panels. We're going to bring in our next guest, and I'll be honest with you, this is what the Munich Security Conference is like. People coming in and out of the vicinity. There are so many different diplomats, so many high-profile figures that come here specifically to listen to these speeches and to also give their analysis and also to give their experience, because obviously we've got around 50 world leaders coming here to talk, to have those backroom discussions, but we've also got former leaders who have got a wealth of experience that the delegations, the conference will benefit from, and obviously as we're watching Volodymyr Zelensky continue with that Q&A, lots of reaction, lots of analysis off the back of that. He is talking about unity. We heard from the Europeans, Ursula von der Leyen, also stressing that there is a real need for European unity. Europe needs to pull up its sleeves, needs to gel together. Sir Keir Starmer even mentioned that the UK is no longer the nation that was the Brexit nation of ten years ago. They understand that they need European integration and to build on that. Right, so my next guest is ready. Anders Fogh Rasmussen, thank you so much for coming so quickly, because I know you've been doing the rounds as well. Obviously you were the former Prime Minister of Denmark and your role in NATO as well. So it's just good to get your analysis. I just wonder, from what you've been hearing, the mood music, I know everybody was with bated breath about what Marco Rubio was going to say. We knew that it wasn't going to be as explosive as JD Vance last year. There were even some laughs, a round of applause. But underlying that, he was still pretty critical. He was scathing about the United Nations. He was critical of how Europeans and their borders were being threatened as well, obviously implying migration. He's still pointing the finger that Europe isn't playing along with the way that NAGA, for example, sees the New World Order.

[00:10:07] Speaker 5: You're right, the tone was different. He said the right things about a strong transatlantic bond. But underneath the surface, the critics are the same. And I fully agree, we need a new NATO, a more European NATO. We need in Europe to carry a bigger part of the security burden.

[00:10:31] Speaker 3: We always hear this kind of idea that you've got a population of 400 million within the European Union, and they turn to the 350 million people in the United States for help against the 140 million population of Russia, and it's just not sustainable. But realistically, you've got a divided European Union. You've got Hungary that pulls more towards Putin. Can you bring everybody together?

[00:10:58] Speaker 5: Yes, we can, and we must. For too long, we in Europe have been dependent on cheap energy from Russia, cheap goods from China, and cheap security from the United States. That model doesn't work any longer. And Europe is a prosperous continent. We are able to pay for our own security. So now we have to shift gear, step up. I would say what we need is to make Europe a defence superpower, unless we will be the victims of conflicts with Russia and maybe the United States.

[00:11:40] Speaker 3: But you're talking about becoming a defence superpower. They're buying most of that hardware from the United States. They can't aid to Ukraine. So they're in a win-win here. They don't lose whatever happens.

[00:11:54] Speaker 5: Well, it's unrealistic to imagine a clear cut of ties to the United States. We will still be interlinked. But in Europe, we must be able to produce more weapons, more missiles, and to do it much faster. Much faster than today.

[00:12:15] Speaker 3: Is that realistically possible? Are you talking about a future that is dominated by a war economy? Is that realistically what we're looking at?

[00:12:27] Speaker 5: We must change our economy, bring our economies on a war footing, which will involve a broad range of changes. We have to drastically cut the time from when you order weapons and ammunition until it's delivered, to cut a lot of red tape. You have to invest more in defence. You have to attract more private investment for defence. You also have to change some of the civilian production into production of military equipment.

[00:13:09] Speaker 3: That is a really stark idea. And for Europeans, especially Europeans maybe more to the south, the further away you get away from that front line in Ukraine, it's difficult. It's a really difficult mindset. You're almost on a par with Russia itself, whose whole economy is now on a war footing.

[00:13:30] Speaker 5: Putin has brought the Russian economy on a war footing. We will have to do the same also in the south of Europe. But I think first and foremost what we need to do is to build a coalition of the willing. A number of European countries that are capable and willing to do what is necessary. And if certain European countries want to opt out of that coalition of the willing, it's their business. I think we need a core of European countries that are willing to do what is needed to protect Europe.

[00:14:11] Speaker 3: Anders Fogh Rasmussen, former Secretary General of NATO. Thank you so much for your time and for quickly coming in and making the time to join us here on BBC News. Really appreciate it. It's a grim warning. It's a quite stark point on which to leave it. But this conference has that level of really getting people to think. Thank you so much for your time. And that's the whole point about places like this. This ability for world leaders to come together, to unite, to be able to bump into each other and to have those frank conversations. And ultimately the conversation here, Europe really wants to show a united front. And we're hearing that time and time again. So lots more still to come here from the Munich Security Forum throughout the day. This is just day two. Back to you.

[00:14:58] Speaker 1: Indeed. Kasia Medeira there in Munich. Thank you so much. And if you do want to keep across all the various lines, the speeches that have happened today, there is plenty of detail and analysis on the BBC News website.