Needle’s Vibe Automation Platform for RAG Voice Agents (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Hi everyone, my name is Matt, I'm from Assembly and I'm joined here by Jan from Needle. Today we'll just be talking about startups, building with voice AI and Jan's experience as well at Needle. Jan, thank you so much for joining me today. Do you mind introducing yourself for everyone here?

[00:00:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, also happy to be here and talking with you, man. I'm Jan from Needle and we are building automations. So we want to make it possible that everybody can build automations. So we are basically a vibe automation platform, such as, you know, vibe coding is quite of a thing. To allow everybody to build like cool applications with code and lovable is maybe one of the leading products in this case or cursor. I think there is a massive new emerging market, which is like automations. I think 2026 is the year of automations and agents. But to build these, sometimes you may have to use a Python SDK. Or you use some Vercel SDK, or maybe you need to be relatively technical configuring JSON objects. And the people who really want to build automations or know how which automations to build are not necessarily the technical ones, but the ones who actually are in the field. And hence, we want to give them a tool to be able to build automations for their use cases. And so, yeah, that's why we created Needle, a vibe automation platform. So we built it. And we also have an integration with Assembly AI, which is actually also we do some hackathons. So we started this three months ago. And since then, we're doing hackathons. And we have around 50 participants normally in the hackathons. And we also see that Assembly AI is a relatively popular integration in the hackathons, which people like to use. In specific case, together with Telegram. Because let's say you want to send a voice note on Telegram. And you want to trigger, use this as a trigger. And then you may want to use Assembly AI to convert this voice. So you can send a text and give it to an AI agent, because AI agent cannot work with audio, it has to work with text. And then maybe do like a specific search across your Google Drive files to find an answer for the question that person asked on Telegram via voice. And they may want to convert this back to voice with Assembly AI and then send back a message in Telegram. So I see this, for example, as a classic use case with Assembly AI. That's why I reached out and I thought maybe I could demo this kind of use case together. Because I think it's also very relevant. Like customer support on WhatsApp, customer support on Telegram or so. And that's kind of like why I wanted to chat with you. And so maybe we can see if there's some potential of collab or something like this.

[00:02:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, great. Thanks for the great intro. I wanted to say it kind of reminds me of, I guess, the tools that we use internally, kind of like N8n and Zapier. But the difference kind of looks like there's a rack built in. So you're doing like an active search over a knowledge base. Can you maybe kind of tell me a bit more about that? I'm kind of used to working with Zapier or N8n.

[00:02:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. I mean, there's two differentiation factors. So the first one is that, as you said, rack. We started basically as a rack API and became a rack for builder. So our initial product was just rack API only because in 2025, so last year, we saw many people want to build rack applications. And it's relatively complex, maybe, because let's say you have to set up a vector database. You have to think of your chunking strategy. Let's say your data. Let's say you have to do a lot of work to, in the end, you don't care. You fucking just want to share a customer support chatbot. You don't want to spend like two weeks on setting up and maintaining also, maintaining also the software for that. So that's why we were like starting with the rack API. And we realized many people want to do repetitive tasks with the rack API, which is, for example, answer the email, you know, so based on my knowledge base. And instead of them manually going ahead and doing. Semantic search to find the relevant ticket, for example, for this email, we, we thought, okay, it seems to be like there's a huge demand for building for this automating with rack. And so that's why we built then the automation platform. And yeah, so if you have ever set up a rack kind of workflow with other automation tools, maybe innate and I think anything is a great tool and I'm not like singing as a bad tool is super cool and also as a great community. Uh, and, um, we're in a similar space. Right. But if you have ever said, for example, rec and anything, I think you need like, I don't know, eight notes or something. You need to, you have some configuration issues with like the maybe use quadrant vector database or PG vector. And then you have to think of yourself of like actually all this technical stuff. And if you actually just want to quickly and ship a high quality also solution that plays something in the hackathon, for example, we had like, uh, with. You just want to have this telegram support and have this search kind of through your knowledge base, which is maybe your Zendesk tickets, which you have just automatically index was needed and you can do record them or maybe your, um, Jira tickets or confluence documents. Um, then you, you don't want to set all this up and you anyway, would never be able to do in such a short time. And so the overhead of setting all this up is too big that some people just let go. And I mean, you maybe follow it's a Reddit and so many people on Reddit. I feel. You actually say, oh, I tried to set up this, like a rag pipeline in and it then has some problem. Can somebody help me out? It's like massive amount of people asking this in different channels and the internet and channel or the rag channel or the classic, uh, Reddit channels. And I think it's one of the interesting sources also to know about what people struggle with. Um, so yeah, the needle is super easy. You just have like one note, which is needle note, a needle agent, which has access to then a collection and a collection is a set of files that. You connect it, let's say to different sources, Google drive, notion, uh, confluence, and maybe slack depends on what you want to connect. You decide, and then you say, okay, agent, you have access to this and we do have indexed the data. So we do rack on this. You can now use the rag tool, do a deep search on this based on the input that you get, and then give me back an answer and that's it. So it's just one note instead of like six, seven, eight notes, and you don't have to configure anything. You just have to click, click, click. And then it's ready to go. So it's, we often work together with like, uh, medium sized teams, um, consultants, um, marketing agencies, which are somewhat technical. They are liking to use technical solutions, but they are not necessarily product, uh, software engineers. So in that case, that is kind of like the suiting solution for them.

[00:06:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:06:49] Speaker 2: Voice is right now a big market. So you're doing a great market assembly AI. I mean, we are not. Like necessarily voice. We are just like, kind of like, uh, helping to stick together solutions, right? Like your solution is one of the parts of the total solution. I mean, Google drive, for example, would be still needed. Right. But, um, I think it's an exciting market you are in and very cool. Also recently, very hot, uh, Miss 11 labs. Also, I think they, uh, they went pretty big, uh, right now they just announced another round, I think two days ago or something. Right. 500 mil at 11 billion evaluation or something like that. So this, sorry, voice, exciting market. I think also voice agents, vice customer support. So I think I will see more, uh, and more of these kinds of workflows also built by users within needed.

[00:07:37] Speaker 1: Um, yeah, there's a fair amount of overlap. Like, um, we get lots of users building voice agents who need to do rag over, like, you know, a series of customer service SOPs, or maybe they have a knowledge base. We, we internally have also kind of had that reg struggle of trying to like, get out. Docs to be, um, searchable by voice agents. So we have, we have a voice agent, um, and we wanted to answer technical questions about assembly AI. So we try and feed over all of our docs, uh, into like a, a database and, you know, sort of similar to the story that you were telling earlier about how, you know, setting that up can, can be difficult and you put a lot of effort in and you don't really get that great of a result. But, um, you know, it's cool to see that, you know, needle, for example, makes it easy for. We even folks in marketing or product managers to quickly spin up an automation and, um, you know, uh, give an agent access to their files, uh, within one note, whereas in any end, it would be a bit more of a more complex setup with multiple notes.

[00:08:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we strive for simplicity, right? I mean, it's a bit like maybe you have WhatsApp came out, right. And WhatsApp now is kind of the text message for everyone. But there was SMS before there was like, uh, other. Services before, but it's just that the UX and the UI, it was so easy to send a message to another person that there's kind of like simplification of making a problem very simple and just understanding user behavior and creating a great UX. Uh, I think it's like sometimes also very strong, um, surely, uh, the first must also work way. So product must also have quite high quality, but I think understanding user behavior, user flow to then. Bring it like a solution, which makes them feel good in a way. Um, something very important, right? Because everybody these days does not have so much time and I feel the attention span is also reducing these days. So some people just like, I fucking just want this to work. Like, I don't care, like make it work. I don't want it to dive in the rabbit hole and learn about semantic search. I don't care. I just want this to work. So I see this sometimes as a technical person myself. Yeah. It's sometimes hard to understand because it's like, Ooh, it's also nice to understand deeply what's kind of going on and the architecture behind and stuff, but sometimes you just don't have time and you just need to solution and let's go, you know, then I also understand, for example, I don't know so well about your technology behind assembly. I voice to text probably have some really cool, uh, models there and look cool training and stuff like that. Um, but I just needed note in my workflow that converts my voice to text. And so, I mean, I also would love to dive deeper. I find this a curious topic, but I always have so many things to do that. I don't have time to dive deeper into this topic. Um, so just case I just use assembly as a note to do voice to text and it's nice. Yeah.

[00:10:36] Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like, you know, the there's, there's, um, there's so many things to explore. There's so many possibilities now with vibe coding, you know, all of us can use technologies that we previously didn't specialize in. And that's also sort of the question I had for you is like, um, do you find more people, uh, wanting to work or liking the user experience of working with a canvas interface to build automations compared to just using something like cloud code to like write a script or, you know, where, where do you see customers kind of finding their comfort zone? Because as a technical person, I 99% of the time would rather just write a script with open code or something like that. Yeah.

[00:11:21] Speaker 2: I mean, that's right. I mean, uh, it depends on the use case. Right. For example, uh, maybe you have a repetitive task that you want to do repetitively then, and you want this to run, for example, every hour or every time a new email arrives for you to set up a web hook trigger, then with like in your code might be a bit annoying to be honest. Uh, so that's nice to work, use a workflow then. Um, or on another hand, sometimes you, like, if you're not super technical, you like also to see visually, I see it a bit like Lego bricks. And you kind of see the Lego bricks and you just build with Lego bricks, something cool. And you can see, oh, here, my Lego brick broke. My note is red, so I need to fix here. Maybe I chat with the needle chat and the needle chat is saying, oh yeah, I see your note is broken. I need, I will fix it. Oh, uh, people like this visual aspect, I think, because they feel like a bit more like, I don't know what's going on. If you just maybe use cloud code and write a script and you say, okay, Python execute my dot PI file. Uh, you don't really, and you have just by coded that you have no idea, to be honest, what went on in this thing. Uh, so you feel a bit like, oh, no idea how to fix this. And then it's a bit less, it feels a bit less, uh, how do you say, just a bit, maybe for some people, like, because they don't know at all what goes on and maybe then how to fix also longterm. And if you want to repetitive, repetitively run a specific task with the trigger note or schedule it, surely you can set up a Chrome job also with code and stuff like this. But. I just feel like the human beings are somehow visual people. We like visuals. I think for example, Slack, I think does an amazing job on visuals. I could also not have any visuals in Slack and just have a cold text messages, but some are really like this, the sound or this, I don't know, this data data or typing the other person, seeing these things because human beings in the end, visual people, I think, um, Reddit does also an amazing job in this. I think it's a bit like this dopamine kick, you know? For example. When you create the code and you're just empty dot PI file and, and then it doesn't feel like, so it doesn't give you so much dopamine. I think when it runs green, I mean, it gives you more dopamine when you see the small boxes turning green and it turns green all over time. And then, Ooh, everything going, Oh, now it works. That's fine. Even personally, me, myself, I'm a coder, right? But sometimes I just like to use the workflow because I don't know, it's, it feels more, it feels somehow for some tasks, it feels nicer to use the workflow. I don't know.

[00:13:55] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, yeah, I, I, I can see how that would be, um, it would kind of, it's easy to feel a reward. It's easy to feel feedback from that kind of like thoughtful UX and thoughtful UI, you know, you can tell when, when, where exactly what is broken, whereas in code, it just sort of feels like a big mess that you don't even know how to navigate. I, I, I, I definitely see that. I guess that's honestly a great segue. To, um, the next question, which was, can you show us around needle and like, show us some of that, that UI and that UX I'm, I'm curious now after, I guess, hearing your thoughts about, uh, thoughtful design.

[00:14:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. Uh, cool. Uh, so I'm here with a needle, uh, and so we are in the needle kind of like, uh, base and we have different kinds of departments. And so for different departments, we also try to create different kinds of projects. And for example, uh. I could go here, let's say to, uh, the marketing project, and then I have kind of like, uh, different workflows and I could create a new workflow and let's say I create a new workflow. I could say, uh, you either use a template, whichever template I want to use, or I start from scratch. Um, and I can create like this workflow here and now I'm here in this empty thing and now I can go on the right side and I don't know yet what I want to build. But I kind of know. What problem I have, I want a workflow that runs every day at, uh, 9 AM. It's my last 24 hours, uh, Gmail emails and, uh, summarizes them with a agent then sends to hashtag general Slack. So you may do like this in vibe coding too, right? You would maybe tell this to code or something. Something too like this. So what I wanted to say is like vibe automation. So in this case, I describe what I want to get built and the agent goes ahead here, you see, and then it's actually building this workflow for you on the left side. So it's like vibe coding, but we call it vibe automation. And so you don't have to say, yo, looks good. Uh, sounds good to me. I have done this. And then you see schedule trigger every day at nine, as I kind of like, uh, described it. Then we have here prompt. Uh. Google mail note. We have an agent note and it's kind of like you prompt just everything you don't need to, maybe I would like to use a different model. That could be, it chooses for mini, which is maybe not the model we want to use. So yeah, it just creates this workflow kind of for you and you don't have to manually go ahead. You can also go manually, go ahead. And now I could hear, for example, go to my assembly AI, for example, uh, uh, transcribe audio note. And let's say, for example, I got an email, which re. Where we say, we will say find email. I don't know that has audio inside. Then I could pass this to assembly AI and transcribe the audio. And maybe then I would go to the AI agent and say, Hey, you transcribe the audio. And now I can give my agent tools. I could either say, for example, you can search also the internet and maybe I would also search, uh, my collection. So my collection, I need to decide which one I want to say, uh, for example, I maybe want to search the Epstein files. We have like an Epstein file collection. Uh, and you could say, for example, yo, you can search internet and search collection to answer this, whichever comes from this. Now I would need to connect to assembly AI in Google mail, which I can currently done. But yeah, basically you are done, uh, have created kind of a workflow for this, but what I could also do, if I would have created this connectors, I could give this all the as tools, which I don't have yet the assembly connector inside here, but I could also just give this all as tools to the AI agent and AI agent would itself. Okay. You describe something like, uh, first transcribe audio to text. With assembly, I would need to select assembly as a tool. So it's kind of like, you know, cloud bot, but with a specific set of tools, it just has access to you decide which tools it was. The F is two, I would need to create a connector and then it would have access to, and then I wouldn't need to use the assembly note, but I would kind of put the assembly tool to the agent. Um, and it would understand first, I will always use the assembly tool. I would transcribe afterwards. I will cause the search rep tool or search collection tool. And afterwards I will generate the, the answer for that, you know? So it's kind of like you could either put everything into one agent and let the agent call to it, or you can just also visually see the boxes here. And maybe I can go to one workflow, which I already have set up. Um. LinkedIn from Zapier, find LinkedIn list from Zapier. This is like a deep research mode, um, track, define competitors.

[00:19:01] Speaker 1: Hmm.

[00:19:01] Speaker 2: Hmm. Prompting innovation, trending content generation. Hmm. I don't know which one I should run right now. I have like many different ones. I don't know which one is interesting to be honest, but yeah, I think I've shown you the UI. You can like invite members to your project, work with them together on like different workflows. And one thing is cool is this collections part. Um, I think the thing is that you need to create collections and so you can create new collection, assembly AI. For example, I get unsafe and to this collection, you can, uh, you can then go ahead and you can kind of put great connectors. And this is what I come to the rack part. So the collections are the rack part. So you can create co. Connect us here so you can make this collection available to have access to HubSpot or maybe Google drive, Jira confluence as a notion, as I mentioned, slack. So you make this data rack available, but you could also say, for example, all pages from a website. And I could, for example, take your website assembly AI, your parent, and I could say, I want to put 800 pages you have on your website. I want to create an assembly AI connector. Um, and then I could give this as. Context as I have shown you before in my workflow to my, uh, agent and say, search collection, assembly AI. I could say, create this connector. And then once I create this connector, it will take some time. This is 800 files. And then afterwards here, we have a chat. You see, you could ask this chat questions or you use this chat as I have shown within the AI agent in the workflow. So you could have, for example, let's say you have a customer that asked a question about assembly AI. You have an FAQ page somewhere on your website. Likely. Then you would just, uh, use. This collection and you would say, yo, um, just, uh, create like, uh, if, if this person questions, uh, Gmail, look at the assembly AI collection, do a rack search on all this data, which comes here inside. Now we see there's a lot of like data coming in from your website and generate an answer based on this content that you have from this collection. So we have like an automated customer support bot, which is based on your assembly AI data, having rack already built in, uh, super fast. Um, so I could go back to my workflow. I created this assembly AI workflow. I can go to my agent. I say, assembly AI. Now I can choose this collection. You see, I say, don't search internet, just use this one. And then suck. I have your kind of customer support with built in rack on your landing page data ready. You could also connect like Zendesk tickets or whatever it's you have to answer these customer support tickets, for example, and super easy to be honest.

[00:21:48] Speaker 1: All right. So that was a great demo. Thank you so much for showing us around. I. I, um, I liked how easy it was to use. And, um, I did also get that kick that you were talking about where you can see, you know, some of these bricks, they're yellow. Let's go in now and fix them. I was, uh, that, that was great. Thank you so much for sharing that.

[00:22:06] Speaker 2: Yeah. Thank you for letting me share.

[00:22:09] Speaker 1: Um, so now I guess I kind of want to talk to you about being a founder and building something, building a company. Um, maybe you can start by telling me like how long you've been at needle and, um, I guess the origin story where you started.

[00:22:25] Speaker 2: Oh, um, oh, origin story. Origin is a hard question. No, because like, where do you start when you're born? Uh, no, I mean, just kidding. Um, yeah, I always wanted to start a startup and I just thought life is a bit boring. I think always I find life a bit like not so exciting. Uh, I studied for example, two bachelors at the same time because I saw one is not challenging enough. Maybe that's a bit weird and I wouldn't recommend. And then I worked for some time in San Francisco in a YC startup and I thought this is really cool and great spirit. And I love, love this, uh, hustle and drive, uh, live for some time in Switzerland and work there as a software engineer. But I felt like life is a bit too, too predictable. Like, it's like, okay, you have a nice job, you have a good salary and life is good. But you know, I feel like life is meant to be more than this. And so I wanted to create something great. I want to create something which excites me and also excites other people where you can, which is like, I don't know, like passion, I guess. And then I created needle, like, um, together with my co-founder, uh, around one year, a bit more than a year ago. And why did we start it? As I said, we started as a rack API because I had many friends who are software engineers, consultants and so on. And they told me, yo, they may work for Accenture or Deloitte or something like this, uh, or some smaller consultancies. And they said, everybody nowadays wants to set up rack pipelines inside our company. So we are trying to use different tools and we try to understand what can we do. And then I thought, hmm, everybody wants to set up rack and it seems to be like a bit cumbersome. Why is there not like a rack API for that? Like a stand out of the box solution, such as maybe in the beginning you would set up websites yourself, like manually or databases, but then they are managed databases. They're managed kind of applications that may let you manage websites and so on. And so. I thought the same is happening with rack, so rack infrastructure tool, um, which is the case. So rack API is, is exciting and in demand, but also became a very crowded market. As you see, like many players joined the rack API market. We were very early, I think back then. Um, and then we, as I said, began, we realized like people want to automate stuff. They don't want to just do the search. Like, let's say, cool. I index your assembly AI website and they can do a search on this and can ask questions about your pricing or whatever. But you now need to put this into like a real use case. Normally rack is not just used to stand alone. Like, yo, I use rack. And so what I use it in a business use case, which is like customer support, for example, or, um, maybe I have a team update or I want to read all my slack messages and every day give like a summary of what happened on slack today within the team, you know? So you need to bring this into a business con context. And that's where automations came to play very well along, I think with a rack and that's kind of like. I think the take, and we raised it 2.2 million round. We are a team of like six. Now, um, we are seeing a great, uh, drive and, uh, people, they like excited. Um, and yeah, we are trying to make this like 2026 year count very much. And, um, yeah, that's kind of, I think it, but I mean, story is I always was excited to start a startup and I feel just like with. Bored if I wouldn't do a startup, because I feel like I think life is something life is not, shouldn't be that predictable. I think I like that. It's unpredictable startup times, you know, every day is kind of exciting and it's not like you work. Yeah.

[00:26:07] Speaker 1: Nice. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. I think, um, I, I think that resonates with a lot of people like, uh, what you said about being passionate about something and working on something that you really believe in. I, uh, that's, that's. That's really commendable. And, you know, I think, uh, it's, it's really great that you are in a position where you can live that out every day. Um, you know, you're building something and you're working with customers, you're giving them something that they want. You know, you pay all this attention to the UI and the UX, um, that makes a real difference and I'm sure it gives you fulfillment. And, um, at the end of the day, I guess you you're happy and, and, um, that's great. That's, that's, that's what life is for.

[00:26:49] Speaker 2: It's a hard place, you know, not every day. It's fun. That's right.

[00:26:54] Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How about you share, um, some difficult, difficult times in, uh, in being a founder?

[00:27:01] Speaker 2: I think last year in July or August. Um, so we launched this workflows last year in October, actually. And we made, you know, sometimes it's like going to gym. You need to fucking lift the heavier weight. Uh, and so we had to lift. It's very heavy rates because, you know, the problem, the tool we built, look at the product is a very, it's also a complex product. It's not like we built a marketplace or Shopify store or, uh, you know, it's, uh, you know, with the chat, with the rack and so on. It's a very deep tech complex product. And to make then on top of that, like a good user journey is also really hard. Uh, so we really had to go very, very much in deep mode. Like. Hustle mode, like crazy. I mean, I'm still very much in hustle mode. I guess I stayed in office until nine. I'm working on the weekends and stuff, but, uh, I think back then in July, I, I was, uh, I think I was close to burnout. To be honest, I could feel it because I was actually, I had many nightmares. I could like not sleep so well. I was very stressed. Oh, I think that was actually a hard time. Kind of came out of that. Good friends, spending more time doing stuff. With friends after work and trying to. Deconnect a bit, disconnect a bit, you know, sometimes otherwise, if you, let's say, take your laptop into bed and you work until one in the night with your laptop in bed, then your sleep is going to be very bad. And next day you're very tired. And then again, this is a safe enforcing effect for the next night. Um, but I think sometimes you also need to go through these phases. Startup is not just like, yo, you're chair nine to five, and then everything's going to be great. You have to do this extra push. Because competition doesn't sleep, you know, um, other people also push. So I also believe in do work smart and not hard, but you also have to work smart and hard at the same time. I think that it's not just like only work smart and not hard. So that's good. Yeah, it was a hard time. I was out there. I think I was very down.

[00:29:13] Speaker 1: I think the good thing about hard times is that you come out of them stronger. And, um, you know, that's why that's part of like the journey of being a founder. It's like I'm not a founder. I've, I've, I've, you know, I joined assembly fairly early on. Um, and so I've seen people who have been here for really long and, um, you can tell that they've been really kind of shaped by the struggle. And, um, and that's like, that's all part of the journey. And, um, when you look back on it, I guess you, you have happy memories of, uh, of the tough times because like you said, you came out of it with friends and, um, with lessons about yourself. Um, another thing that you mentioned was that you, you solve like for your own pain, like you had friends who are talking about building rag internally and, um, you figure that you might try and see how, how you could help. Maybe you could kind of tell me more about that discovery process of finding a problem to solve and, um, how you landed on rag as an API. Yeah.

[00:30:15] Speaker 2: I mean, American isn't, it was the very first tool. Uh, so now we are workflow beta, which is again, listening to. Users, right. But I mean, it's just like, I was software engineer myself in a company where we wanted to roll out something where we need reg API. And then if your friends tell you the same, I'm like, yo, everybody working now on this seems to be like a market. Uh, then I followed a lot of Reddit. I think Reddit, by the way, great tool for market research because people are honest on Reddit. They don't like lie. They are just like, uh, telling their problems. They are saying what they will build. And I saw there's so many. People. People who, who had this problem. And then, uh, it was just like, I would say that's how we validated it. Then we try to ask some people, Hey, would you use a rag API? Or we say, if we have a rag API, you have to spend less time to set the rag. Would you use it? And people were like, yeah, I would use it. And then, then that's kind of how we validated first people trying the product, using the product. There was demand for it. Uh, then we just said, there's fucking go, you know, I think sometimes you also say. It needs to say, let's fucking go because you cannot always just say, Ooh, maybe let's stay a bit more inside and think a bit more at a certain point. I think you need to say, I go out there, I do stuff, I push and I try to make it, uh, because if you never say, let's go, then you can also never make it. But, uh, yeah, it's good to validate beforehand and work on something that you like, but I think definitely very, very dated, uh, problem space. Um, but I think also. You don't know so much yet in the beginning, what exactly solution you build, you know, kind of, I like this problem space. It fits to my skill set. It fits to my co-founder skill set. It fits to my, what I like to work on also. And it fits to the problem that I want to solve and the clients that I want to serve, because in the very, very beginning. We were working together on something very different also, which is a point of, uh, service POS system, something like sum up, you scan a QR code on a table and you pay. And I talked with like two. A hundred restaurant owners, and I hate to talk. I mean, I don't want to, they are great also, but I cannot so well talk with restaurant owners because their way of thinking is sometimes a bit like old school. And then as a young technical person, it's somehow very hard to resonate with them. And if these people are your clients and you have to talk with them every day, I would have burned out after half a year and I would never come back to this, you know? So you need to love also your, you need to love also your user. You need to like to. Something for your user. And I think in our case, user is relatively similar to me or like people I like to work with or you, I think you could be user. I think you're a nice guy also. So I would like to work with you for example, but I would not necessarily like to work with the 60 year old restaurant owner who is very much against tech and a bit like conservative. I could not work so well with him every day and see him every day, but still be like smiling at him. Say, Oh yeah, I surely help you. You. Be. Because he's, he's, he's user, you know, a client and the client is king. So that's very, very fast.

[00:33:27] Speaker 1: That's funny. It's kind of like you want to work with your friends and have a customer that you like, you genuinely like and genuinely want to get along to and genuinely want to talk to every day.

[00:33:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, nice. Because otherwise you see them every day. You talk to them every day. They tell you their problems every day. You have a back and they come to you, you know? So yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. So. So it's like the problem you saw, and I didn't know that we would build automations back then. Right. But now we do. So you always need to be adjustable to the market. You need to be fast. You need to be smart and hear what people say.

[00:34:02] Speaker 1: If you had like one piece of advice for it's, it's, it's a great segue, but if you had one piece of advice for founders or product managers kind of watching along, what would you give?

[00:34:15] Speaker 2: To be honest, I think find a great co-founder. I think that's very.

[00:34:19] Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Interesting. What's your relationship with your co-founder like?

[00:34:24] Speaker 2: Oh, it's very good. I think, I mean, we also have days where we are not where we disagree because I think as hopefully founders have a strong opinions and also some ego. I do have some strong opinions and they do have some ego, but you also need to have, because you need to move fast and push and you need to be believe in what you think is right. So it's okay to question yourself, but you also need to be very confident. And sometimes there's two founders. They're very confident. They can also crash because it's hard then to find a middle ground. But I think, uh, if I first also start maybe to found a loan, but I think it's very good to have a co-founder too, because some days you're low, the other person is low, but, uh, you are high. So you kind of push each other, you know, you push each other up because let's say you stay into your office on a weekend on a Saturday until eight and it's dark outside. It's hard to do alone, but if you're sitting together, maybe in office, maybe you order lunch or dinner together, then. Kind of enjoy it more, you know, because I need to enjoy the right and finding a good co-founder is very hard. Uh, I think you need to put yourself into really tense and hard situations and to understand, can I see this guy on a Saturday night while I'm not in a good mood? And we kind of have some problem in production. And if you can say yes to this question, then this is a good co-founder for you. If you have complimentary skills also, and they fit to the product. Yeah.

[00:35:44] Speaker 1: Nice. Thanks for that piece of advice. Honestly, thanks for coming on. I. I really enjoyed our chat. I enjoyed listening to your story. I'll be sure to share like your links in the description and yeah, everyone that was yarn from needle. Thanks for listening.

[00:36:01] Speaker 2: Thank you guys very much, everyone. And thanks Matt.