Pubs win rates relief as UK weighs leasehold reform (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio and we're doing a bit of a throwback today because one of the major news stories in British politics today is about pubs and how much they pay for business rates. So we thought we would reopen the old newscast pub which has been shuttered for several years now, The Rat and Parrot. It's it's open again. And just to recreate the whole pub atmosphere I'm now going to wander around and see who I meet and what interesting news stories they can bring us. And who is that? I see a table by the door. It is business editor Simon Jack who is here to bring us news of the government new turn on business rates for pubs. Simon, cheers. Hello Adam. Please can we go back to business rates school again before we dive into today's news?

[00:00:46] Speaker 2: So business rates, the best way to think about them I think is like council tax for businesses. It's the rates they pay to make use of the amenities, the water, the parking, the blah blah blah from which they benefit. And for that they pay an annual charge and it's made up of two things. There's a percentage of the value, the rateable value of the property. So you apply that percentage or the multiplier as it's known to the rateable value of the property and you get your business rates bill for the year. Now what happened in the last budget is Rachel Reeves with some fanfare announced that she was going to lower business, the multiplier bit, the percentage bit and said this is going to be the lowest rates in a generation. But there was a sting in the tail because that very night the rateable value of the property all went up. Well not all of them but a large number of them went up by a lot, easily eclipsing the reduction in the multiplier rate. Net result, much much higher bills for loads of businesses. Basically all businesses.

[00:01:47] Speaker 1: And it's because the rateable value which went up by a lot is decided by a separate organisation which is not the treasury.

[00:01:54] Speaker 2: It didn't seem like they'd been talking to... The valuation office came up with this and it does look as if the left hand wasn't talking to the right hand here. So the net result was actually she announced lower rates. In fact what everyone got was higher business rates for most people. And at the same time some Covid-era support was withdrawn finally. Correct. So basically during Covid-era there were discounts the business rates to keep businesses alive during that period. That has been tapering off over time. It was reduced to the 75% discount came down to 40% last year. The 40% discount on rates going to zero come April. So you've got all these things happening at once. Net result, perfect storm for many businesses. And that's why the pub owners led the backlash against this. They're not the only people affected but they were the most perhaps effective in voicing their concerns. In fact they were banning lots of Labour MPs, barring them from their local pubs. And it's one of those things that you know the Chancellor admitted today, pubs have a special place in their communities. And you know you go to a pub quite regularly in your local town or village. If it closes down you notice. The local carpet fitter, you probably go there once every three years, you don't notice that so much. So they punch above their economic weight in political terms.

[00:03:09] Speaker 1: And also pubs have been dealing with the things that every business is dealing with, which over the last few years was increasing energy bills. And in the last year was an increasing wage bill because of the increase in employer's national insurance.

[00:03:21] Speaker 2: And indeed an increase in the national living wage, particularly for younger people which has seen some very substantial increases. And things like pubs, hospitality, tend to employ quite a lot of people and quite a lot of young people. So they were disproportionately affected by that and which hurt a lot of their bottom line.

[00:03:40] Speaker 1: So I think we're up to now six factors aren't we? I don't know what a six tuple whammy is. So pubs were facing a six tuple whammy, which I've just invented. You came into the studio a couple of weeks ago to tell us this U-turn change of position tweak was on the cards.

[00:03:55] Speaker 2: What's that actually amounted to now that it's official? So what they're doing is pubs are facing a on average 76% rise in their rates bill over three years. Now the government has already created a little fund, a kitty, to try and smooth out the edges of that so it staggers it over time. So rates bills next year in April, we're going to go up basically by a maximum of 15%. It was capped at 15%. Less if you're smaller, more if you're bigger. But 15% is the average. Today's package says we're going to knock that off. We're going to apply a 15% discount to your rates bill due in April. And we're going to freeze that for two years. And in the meantime, we're going to think a bit more about how we value these things generally. So good news, bought herself a bit of cheer at the bar with pubs, but it doesn't apply to the rest of the hospitality sector. Hotels were facing even higher rates bill rises. So are restaurants and indeed the entire rest of the high street sector are all facing these bills. She said this package is just for pubs. And as I say, she thinks that pubs are special. They deserve different treatment. And it's temporary because this 15% discount is this year. And then. Well, it's frozen. Then it is frozen for two years in real terms. So it'll rise along with inflation. And by the end of the three year period, they'll have another go at looking at the methodology by which they value the pubs. So she's bought herself some time on the pub front. But I can tell you that the people who aren't included in today's package are feeling like they've been left out in the cold.

[00:05:28] Speaker 1: And also in the long term, the Treasury will be confronted with this again in three years, and they could end up in the same place.

[00:05:34] Speaker 2: They could be unless they change the way they value the actual properties. And at the moment, pubs get valued not just on that, you know, their premises, the size of it, their value, but also how profitable they are. And some people feel that if I do well, I get punished for it. So there's a lot of moving parts here. In the short term, I think it's fair to say that the pub sector generally feels they've got a pretty good deal. There's a sigh of relief on this. But in making friends in that sector, in a way, she's made a lot of new enemies in the sectors that aren't included in this package.

[00:06:06] Speaker 1: And I suppose this will be a test of does the British political establishment feel as emotional about restaurants and hotels as it does about pubs? And if they actually end up feeling just as emotional or just as responsible, but then actually there'll be a U-turn on restaurants and hotels?

[00:06:24] Speaker 2: Well, let's see. Well, these new rates bills don't come into effect, both the discounted one for pubs and the non-discounted ones for restaurants, hotels, etc, and the rest of the high street don't come into effect until April. So in theory, there's some time if they need to, to have a look at this again. But, you know, boy, you know, another climb down, you know, you know, you know better than I do that you've probably covered quite a few of the last, which adds to the weight of some people, including some of our influential MPs, her own colleagues, in fact, you know, cabinet members saying, let's try and get things right the first time.

[00:07:00] Speaker 1: Although I wonder, I'm now using my very dormant business brain. Is there something about the profitability and the margins here that actually do hotels and restaurants make more money? That means they could soak up a bigger business rates bill. And actually, it's just that pubs exist on a sort of like, kind of pretty threadbare profit margin.

[00:07:21] Speaker 2: I don't think I don't think there's any evidence for that. If you talk to Tom Kerridge, the famous restauranteur, he's been quite vocal about this. They haven't got any help here. He runs, he also runs a pub. And some people say, well, hang on a second, my pub's also a restaurant. But it all depends on how you're registered with your local authority and what have you. And remember, business rates money goes 50% to the local authority, 50% to central government. I should say this package is for pubs in England only. Although there is something people will know as a regular listener, the Barnett formula, which means that it gets proportionally applied to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as well. Simon, thank you.

[00:08:00] Speaker 1: Thank you, Adam. Right, I'm now going to stand up, end my way towards the bar where sitting there is political correspondent Joe Pike. Hello, Joe. Hi, Adam. And thank you for walking all the way from Westminster to the newscast studio to bring us this news in person.

[00:08:14] Speaker 3: Yes, but which story are we talking about? Leasehold. Well, it's a big story. It affects lots of people. Or would you rather talk about a different story? No, no, we can talk about pubs.

[00:08:23] Speaker 1: Actually, do you know what? Do you want to just round up the pubs news? What's the politics of that, that you turn on business rates for pubs?

[00:08:30] Speaker 3: It is awkward. The fact that Rachel Reeves has been at a pub in South London today. That she wasn't banned from. Exactly. And with a sort of, I think she was making a gin and tonic, it looked like, sipping a gin and tonic. I think that shows she wants to communicate, she has heard and is listening. But this is a climb down. It is a partial U-turn. And actually, there are people in the Treasury who told me it was almost instant after the budget that their number crunchers realised that something was wrong. They hadn't done the calculations right and that they would need to act. It's taken them, well, not as long as some of the other partial U-turns, but they said it's taken them a few more weeks after we knew that they were making changes because they wanted to get it right, get the numbers right. And so now they have made these changes. And certainly for MPs who are very worried about music venues and pubs in their communities, which are not just a sort of economic benefit to a constituency, but also cultural and social. I think those Labour MPs are happier today.

[00:09:37] Speaker 1: And as I was just saying to Simon, we will discover how much clout the other sectors, like restaurants and hotels, who are not included in this climb down, how much they have, and whether they can force a similar climb down for them. So that will be interesting to see.

[00:09:49] Speaker 3: The Liberal Democrats in particular have said, yeah, this is good. But what about everyone else on the high street? The Tories view today is, is that it? Those are the words that Mel Stride, the Shadow Chancellor, used in the Commons. And some of his MPs on the Tory backbenches think that this climb down, clarification, partial U-turn is a little bit late for some pubs and publicans who've already looked at the numbers and thought, actually, this is just not going to work for me and my business.

[00:10:16] Speaker 1: Right, let's talk about the other story then. And this is reforms to how property is owned in England and Wales. And I suppose we should, like we did with Simon, and what is business rates, we should do a bit of bit of definitions first. So freehold, and because this is different in Scotland, freehold is basically where you own the land and the property pretty much in perpetuity. Leasehold is when you have a lease to the actual land on which your property is built. And that can be like 100 years, or in some cases, much, much shorter. But it means you don't really own your property forever. Not forever.

[00:10:51] Speaker 3: You can live in it for a limited number of years, subject to a lease from a freeholder. And it's controversial, because in particular, ground rents in recent years, in some small number of cases, seem to have been rising, and people don't get anything for the ground rent. It's not like a service charge, where you might have somebody cleaning your hallway, or washing the windows. Ground rent is something you don't get anything for. And there's been controversy around that in England and Wales for a while, Labour making commitments to try and reform the system. Well, yeah, I mean, it has been around for centuries. And Labour saying it's a sort of feudal system in their sort of rhetoric. There are about 5 million leasehold homes in England and Wales. And we know that ground rents were already abolished for most new leasehold homes by the Conservatives back in 2022. But existing leasehold properties, well, the ground rent still exists for them, right? So what's happened today is that Keir Starmer announcing this in a TikTok, the first, we think, government policy to ever be announced on that social media platform, has said we're going to cap that ground rent at £250 a year. In about 40 years' time, that will be reduced to a peppercorn rent, i.e. almost nothing. And there are also other reforms, including making service charges, which are also controversial, making it clearer what they are on bills, and also helping renters and leaseholders challenge unfair service charges.

[00:12:26] Speaker 1: So this is the Labour government building on something that the Tory government did, but didn't do to this extent.

[00:12:32] Speaker 3: Yeah, and there had been worries, concerns from some on the Labour benches that they wouldn't go as far as they have done. Now, there are campaigners on both sides who are unhappy today. There are certainly people who represent leaseholders who say, 40 years until there's a peppercorn rent. I don't want to wait 40 years. Why don't you just do it immediately? But on the other side, there are people who represent professional freeholders, investors, who say that this is wholly unjustified, and it damages the UK's reputation around being a sort of safe, stable investment location, if I've invested in this property. And then later down the line, legislation means that that is not a great investment.

[00:13:18] Speaker 1: And also, just in terms of where we are in this becoming law pipeline, what they've done today is published the draft legislation. So there's a big consultation on that, which will last a few months. And then it's got to wend its way through both houses of Parliament, where it can be amended and have extra things added to it, depending on what's happening in politics at that point.

[00:13:37] Speaker 3: Absolutely. And there are, of course, quite a few landlords in Parliament, in both houses of Parliament. Maybe they weren't in the Commons today, because certainly from what I heard from watching the Housing Minister Matthew Penacook's statement, there didn't seem to be many people hugely objecting. I say most MPs seemed vaguely supportive, although maybe there are others who were far more concerned, just hadn't turned up to the Commons at that moment.

[00:14:06] Speaker 1: Now, Joe, I was watching you on the six o'clock news last night, and you were in Gorton and Denton, home of the upcoming by-election. And there was a great bit when you did your piece to camera, which is when you were talking to the camera, and over your shoulder was, was it a Chinese restaurant called Denton Delights? Yes, apparently. I didn't go in it, but it's a...

[00:14:22] Speaker 3: Well, you were working, you didn't have time. Of course, but it was absolutely packed. And apparently it is a well-known, highly regarded Cantonese restaurant.

[00:14:32] Speaker 1: You should ask them what they think about their business rates. But you had enough on your plate. I had enough on my plate. Also, other restaurants serving other cuisines are available in that constituency. But have you got any delights from Denton you could bring us?

[00:14:44] Speaker 3: It was fascinating to speak to a lot of people who were undecided, who were frustrated about local issues. A lot of shopkeepers, very angry about the cycle lanes being put through one part of the constituency.

[00:14:58] Speaker 1: Is that the responsibility of the mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, perhaps? I think, I think it might. Local authority, be local authority.

[00:15:06] Speaker 3: But they were very frustrated because it's like, you're putting in cycle lanes, you're taking away our car parking spaces. We can't get parked. Our customers can't get parked in the butchers and in the barbershop I was in. They were like, why is this happening? This really is impacting our bottom line. A lot of awareness of reform. But it's a reasonably diverse constituency. The last census, they recorded the population was 28% Muslim. And there are four parties that got the last general election more than 10%. They were Labour, Reform UK, the Green Party and the Workers' Party. The Workers' Party being quite a minor party, led by former Labour MP George Galloway, but one that in by-elections and some elections has seemed to do well in areas with large Muslim populations.

[00:15:57] Speaker 1: But interesting, four parties getting above 10%. That's quite unusual in a British or an English seat, isn't it?

[00:16:04] Speaker 3: Yeah, and the Conservatives and the Lib Dems ran too. It seems to be reasonably open at the moment and also likely to be one of those contests, especially it's a by-election where all the parties are going to put all of their resources into it, where you may see a lot of squeeze messages.

[00:16:20] Speaker 1: And the squeeze message is saying, don't vote for those other guys because there's only two parties that can win here. So vote for us. Exactly. Which is normally a classic Lib Dem leaflet, isn't it?

[00:16:30] Speaker 3: It is. It's not just getting the electoral data, the campaigning door knocking data on what you like. You're an Adam Fleming voter, but also like maybe you're not that keen on Adam, but you really don't want Simon Jack. And therefore we're saying if you want to avoid Simon Jack taking control of this constituency, the safest bet, even if you're not keen on him, is to back Adam.

[00:16:53] Speaker 1: Thanks for making that so personal. But in terms of Gorton and Denton by-election news today on Tuesday, Reform have announced their candidate and it's an interesting character.

[00:17:02] Speaker 3: Interesting character, Matt Goodwin, who was an academic, sort of academic turned activist. He's a GB News presenter. He's quite prominent on social media. Some other parties have already criticised Reform for not picking a local candidate. However, Reform have said in their press release and put this pretty high up, that Matt Goodwin's family is from Manchester. His grandfather worked full time in a Manchester steel factory. He went to Salford University. He worked throughout his degree, even delivering fast food in the Gorton and Denton area. So them trying to really sort of magnify his local connections. He of course is a very experienced communicator. We don't know yet what he'll actually be like as a door to door, sort of doorstep campaigner. That's a slightly different skill, but we'll find out soon, I'm sure. There's another candidate that in the last 24 hours has been unveiled and that is the Workers' Party candidate. That's Councillor Shabazz Sarwar. So he is already a councillor in the Longsite Ward in the, what is it, the west of the patch. He got elected in 2024. He seems to be pretty active. So he's a local man and George Galloway said, I'm not going to run, but we've got this local councillor, Shabazz Sarwar, who's running. So he, I'm sure, also will be pretty active. Still waiting for, of course, the Labour candidate. That process is underway. Interviews today. And then I'm sure we'll get the Green candidate. They are arranging events in the constituency and then other parties. It's a by-election.

[00:18:39] Speaker 1: There may be 15 candidates possibly. Right. And when we get a list of all those candidates, that will of course be available on the BBC News website. So everyone can see everyone who's running in Gorton and Denton. Joe, thank you very much. Thanks, Adam. And now I'm going to be one of those annoying people who goes to the pub and sits and has a phone conversation on FaceTime out loud, because my next guest is nowhere near the rat and parrot because it's Laura Bicker, our China correspondent. And I actually spoke to her earlier to get a bit of a preview of the Prime Minister's trip to China, which is about to get underway. Because as you heard in the last episode of Newscast, Chris Mason is on his way there now. So here's my conversation with Laura Bicker. Laura, hello.

[00:19:22] Speaker 4: Hello, Adam. How are you doing?

[00:19:23] Speaker 1: Very well, thank you. So Chris is getting on a plane soon-ish. I don't know exactly what his travel details are, but what sort of itinerary awaits the Prime Minister and his guests?

[00:19:35] Speaker 4: So from what we understand, we know he's going to meet President Xi at the Great Hall of the People. So there will be a handshake between President Xi and the UK Prime Minister. We know there's a big business delegation from both sides. So I expect those two sides to sit down and hash out the final details of the deal. I am told that there are multiple deals to be announced. So we'll watch out for that. I think he's going to get a nice tour of the Forbidden City, which is lovely. Although I have to say at this time of year, Adam, it is absolutely Baltic. So I hope that everybody coming is completely wrapped up. We went out the other day, it was minus, well, with windchill, it said it was minus 19. So it gives you an expectation. But I think when it comes to what we're watching for from the Beijing perspective, in the last couple of months, I mean, I've just talked about how cold it is. This is not a welcoming city in winter. This is not your kind of winter destination. And yet in the last two months, we've had this parade of world leaders from France, South Korea, Canada, Finland in the last 24 hours, and we've got the German Chancellor coming next month. And Beijing is allowing this to happen and framing it as nations coming to China as a predictable, reliable partner, in contrast to the United States, where Donald Trump's threatens tariffs, China is offering deals. And I think when it comes to that contrast, I expect Beijing to do that again. And I think, obviously, we've already heard in interviews, that Sir Keir Starmer does not want to choose between China and the United States, that this visit is not about that. This is about the trade between the UK and Beijing, and it has nothing to do with the United States. But I do expect China to try to frame it. We've already heard from statements today that they're saying that the UK is coming here in turbulent times. So I expect more of that over the coming days.

[00:21:40] Speaker 1: And I suppose all those other world leaders have come with their own particular relationships with America and with China. Each country is quite unique. So for example, Mark Carney, he is much tougher on Trump, even though he's much more geographically closer to Trump. And also, Canada hadn't really had much of a relationship with China. So he's not a sort of cut and paste version of Keir Starmer, is he? It's very different.

[00:22:06] Speaker 4: Canada blazed a trail, I think, when they came here. Because if a country that was so in a deep freeze with China, that had one of the worst relationships of any part of the Western world with China, can make their way back, then I think what it shows other nations is there is a way forward. Now, I have been speaking to business leaders today. What I can tell you is that in the past, when I've spoken to officials who are trying to do deals with China, what they've said to me is, look, Laura, this is really hard. This is really difficult. China strikes a hard bargain. But because all these leaders are coming, and because so many, as you say, are kind of striking their own deals and blazing their own paths and ways into Beijing. But what they're saying is there's almost a conveyor belt. The Chinese officials have kind of got used to sitting across from their counterparts. Whereas before there was kind of a frosty reception stand, you know, making a hard bargain. Now there does seem to be this conveyor belt of deals, and the UK is next. So it does seem to smooth the path, even though each country is different. It does help smooth the path for the UK.

[00:23:14] Speaker 1: Just in terms of kind of, well, now ancient political history, I hadn't quite clocked that the last British Prime Minister to go to Beijing was eight years ago. And it was Theresa May. And I think maybe the reason I hadn't clocked that was because actually, there have been other ministers going. So Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor was there. So it's not like there's been no British presence in Beijing over the last few years. It's actually just not been at Prime Ministerial level.

[00:23:38] Speaker 4: Yeah, we had a succession of visits from the likes of Rachel Reeves. We've had others kind of make their way here. David Lammy was here. I think all very low level, they've kept it quite quiet. Each time they've arrived, you know, it's not been done with huge fanfare. They've not travelled with much press. And even access from my point of view, you know, we've had a couple of quick chats with them, but not much. So it has been kept under the radar. But now this one, I mean, it's much debated in your part of the world. Here, it's a few paragraphs in the Foreign Ministry statement, but it's still there. And I've spoken to Chinese professors. And I think what their view is, yes, Britain is still important to China, because I was asking, I was like, look, you know, China's so dominant at the moment. You've got a country that produces a third of the world's goods. You've got a country that makes, you know, from 60 to 80% of renewable technology from solar panels, wind turbines to electric vehicles. You've got a country that processes 90% of the world's rare earth minerals. The thing that we need to make smartphones, computers, military weapons. So what on earth can the UK offer Beijing? Well, it seems that here it's banking, it's services. And obviously there's a million alumni. This is one thing I didn't know until the last couple of weeks. There are a million Chinese people who've studied in the UK. I've met quite a few of them at Caley's when it comes to kind of Scottish events. I have to say Scottish universities do seem to be popular. And I've met a few, I went to a brewery the other day. I do not do all my stories involving alcohol or other Scots, but this was a Chinese businessman. He studied in Glasgow. It's quite interesting because he just fell in love with British beer. And I mean, all he's like, yes, just the beer is so good. I was like, okay. And he started brewing his own beer. He's got a brewery in Glasgow and his bar here. So he's kind of this cross cultural ale and the Chinese love it. They're flocking to his bar. They're sitting there, you know, they're eating their fish and chips and drinking their brown ale. So there are connections that I didn't even know about, but I think when it comes to the kind of cultural connections and the business connections, I expect that to be highlighted over the next few days.

[00:26:03] Speaker 1: And a reminder, there's only three and a half days of dry January left. Anyway, it's been good for my health. Anyway, Laura, going back to the geopolitical picture, and obviously there's then this regular thing of whenever a British political figure goes to China, they say the things about human rights, whether it is the oppression of the Uyghurs or whether it is the suppression of democracy in Hong Kong with activists like Jimmy Lai. I get the impression that the Brits go and read out from a bit of paper, do a bit of mild finger wagging, and then the Chinese just go, next.

[00:26:44] Speaker 4: I think that's what's going to happen here again. I think the problem for Britain is because of Hong Kong, it has more to bring up. And because obviously we've seen the protests in Hong Kong, we've seen this slow eradication of what people there are alleging, that perhaps more and more of their rights are being eroded in Hong Kong. And we're seeing what many are accusing China of doing, of overtaking Hong Kong rather than have this dual system that was promised. And I think that gives Britain perhaps a louder voice when it comes to human rights. And I think when it comes to the others we've seen come through, human rights is still part of the conversation, but Mark Carney put it one way. He said, look, now is not the time to grab the megaphone. Yes, we're going to bring it up, but at an appropriate time. I think what we'll see from the UK is a bit of, look, we have brought it up. Yes, we have read the Chinese, but honestly, when it comes to these constant allegations, it irks the Chinese. Officials will not be pleased by it, but in many ways they'll just brush it away, brush it aside, because as I mentioned, this is a very, very confident Beijing right now. This is a China that within the last year has fought a trade war with its fellow superpower, the United States, that it's used its status as the factory of the world, as leverage against Donald Trump. And here President Xi will believe that he's shown America just how strong China can be. So this is a China that feels dominant, that feels confident. So when any power, any nation brings up human rights, I think at this stage, China will feel confident enough to brush off and know that it won't interfere with the trade negotiations that are ongoing.

[00:28:40] Speaker 1: And in terms of the political situation in China that Keir Starmer is arriving into, there's a few things going on, one of which I've noticed is this, loads of senior military figures being, well, some might say fired, other people might use the word purged. What's going on there?

[00:28:55] Speaker 4: Well, Adam, they don't come back. So it's very, very rare for anyone who disappears to reappear. So the senior ranks of the People's Liberation Army are currently in tatters. So at the weekend, what we saw was China's top general, Zhang Youxi, and another military officer has been so-called purged. And it came from a number of press releases from the defence ministry, where they were accused not just of corruption, and that's the usual thing we hear, certainly with much of President Xi's corruption drive. We usually hear that they've maybe committed some bribery, maybe committed alleged offences of various types of corruption. This one, it appears that they have seriously undermined, as it said in one of the editorials, seriously undermined the chairman of the military commission, which is President Xi. Now, many people, many analysts are viewing this as President Xi getting rid of any potential rival, although there are various allegations banning around about what this top general may have done. But Adam, I think the thing you've got to understand if you're coming new to this, this has been an ongoing purge since President Xi took power in 2012. He has gone through rank and file, all of lower officials, local government, higher government, and then come about 2023, he started targeting the military. And now we see some of his top generals, some of the very few that have even combat experience disappearing and being accused of corruption. And I think it's really generating headlines amongst China watchers, if nobody else wondering what on earth is going on at the upper echelons of the People's Liberation Army.

[00:30:44] Speaker 1: And in terms of when somebody does get purged, to use that word, do they get sent to prison? Do they get to sort of retire and just never be seen again? Or is it sort of more sinister than that? Or do we just not know?

[00:31:00] Speaker 4: So I would love a back briefing. I would love Chinese officials to take me aside. So Laura, this is what happens. But of course, welcome to my life here in Beijing. That does not happen here. It's not like any other country. It's not like we have any access. Everything that happens is opaque. What we kind of think happens is that some of them after a while, they'll be taken somewhere questioned. And it takes several months before we hear the actual charges. And then we find out that they're being imprisoned for a very long time. So I think that is what we expect this time around. Although with such a senior general, what we are also expecting is his supporters, the people that he's promoted over the years, to also perhaps be purged, also be accused of corruption within the coming months. So this might not be the end of it.

[00:31:51] Speaker 1: Right. And not to turn this into a Chris Mason travelogue podcast, but what sort of things do visiting British journalists have to bear in mind in terms of reporting on the ground there? I'm thinking like really basic things like not having the same access to the internet that I have here in the studio right now.

[00:32:08] Speaker 4: Yeah, there are a few challenges. So first of all, we have a thing called VPN. So that means that we can access the internet outside China because there's a massive firewall right across the country. VPNs are actually illegal in China, but you kind of get away with it if you're a journalist. But that allows me to access the outside world. But again, it's hit and miss. I'm talking to you now, so it's working fine, but it can be hit and miss. There are various restrictions on us. Yes, we carry press cards, but there is not an understanding of a free press here. So anywhere I go, for instance, when I'm traveling, I usually get a lot of questions from the police. If I'm doing something controversial, whether it's rare earths or whether we're in the edge of Sichuan on the edge of Tibet, you expect to be followed. You expect to be taken to a security office and you expect to be fully questioned for a number of hours before hopefully be set free. These are the kind of restrictions. So it goes from a simple, let me see your press card. What are you doing here? Please don't film here. Don't film us. You also get accused of taking illegal interviews sometimes. And so it goes from that level all the way up to three hours in a police office trying to negotiate your way out. So I think Chris will be fine. He's traveling with the prime minister. I hope he enjoys this beautiful country as much as he can see. I think the other thing, Adam, that I didn't mention, it does look like, now that much of Europe has it, but it does look like they are certainly ready to announce, and I can't say it with 100% certainty, but I think I'm 90% sure that they're going to be visa free entry for British tourists. They've done it for other countries, especially after visiting prime ministers. They did it for Canada the other week. So we are kind of hoping and looking to see if that's going to happen. I have to say, just to look at the upside, China is a stunning country, absolutely beautiful country with amazing people who are so welcoming. So although I have that experience as a journalist, as a tourist, it's one of the most wonderful places to travel. So don't be put off by what I'm telling you.

[00:34:27] Speaker 1: And also it's just so much to discover because the average British person, including me, knows so little about it.

[00:34:33] Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things we've been having these discussions ahead of Sir Keir Starmer's visit. And I think many people who've phoned me up and just gone, look, here's the thing. I just don't know much about China. Can you help me out? I was like, yeah, sure. So I think there is a big disconnect. And sometimes these people to people exchanges, even at a small level, even as a tourist, can really make a difference to help you understand the country. And a country is different from its leaders, as we all know.

[00:35:03] Speaker 1: Laura, thank you very much.

[00:35:05] Speaker 4: Thank you. Lovely to talk to you.