Starmer’s China visit: visas, optics, and cautious trade (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: We're going to be talking a lot about China today, so we've assembled an all-star cast, as usual, in Beijing. It's Laura Bicker. Hello, Laura.

[00:00:06] Speaker 2: Hello. How are you doing?

[00:00:07] Speaker 1: Very well, thank you. And here in the studio is Deputy Economics Editor Darshini David. Hello, Darshini.

[00:00:12] Speaker 3: Hi, Adam. How are you?

[00:00:13] Speaker 1: Very well, thank you. And I'm going to be even better when we discuss Chinese proverbs before we do the news. I thought we'd do some ancient wisdom before we do the news. Everything in China kind of works on a longer timeframe than we're used to. And Laura, I noticed Xi Jinping, the Chinese president, used a Chinese aphorism in his remarks with Keir Starmer, which was, range far your eye over long distances.

[00:00:37] Speaker 2: Yes.

[00:00:38] Speaker 1: What does that mean?

[00:00:39] Speaker 2: Of course, China's playing the long game. And he's urging others to do the same. When it comes to any kind of political event, China is always playing the long game. And I think that's what people need to remember. This is not a government. This is not a president that needs to worry about elections. Every four or five years, he's not going to have to go out there and say, look, vote for me. So when he's talking about range your eye far, he's talking about look way towards the horizon. Stop thinking about your political problems now. Think about the reaping the rewards of this kind of meeting.

[00:01:19] Speaker 1: Little problems like human rights in Hong Kong and amongst the Uyghurs, for example. Right, Darshini, we've got one for you, having written a book about the environment. The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Not uttered by President Xi today, but it is a well known Chinese proverb.

[00:01:36] Speaker 3: It is. And it is an interesting one, isn't it? Because first visit by a British PM in eight years in China, as we've been hearing from the likes of Laura, has changed so much in that time. And what it's got to offer countries like the UK has changed so much in that time. But so to have the complexities of the relationship. And you've got to wonder maybe if we need to be looking at some of these things a little bit earlier on.

[00:01:57] Speaker 1: This is what happens when you get great experienced broadcasters. You can fire them a Chinese proverb and they will pivot it into analysis of today's news. It's great. Right. We've then found one which is so pertinent considering what Donald Trump was saying about China and renewable energy at Davos last week. This blew my mind when I read this one. When the winds of change blow, some people build walls and others build windmills. I mean, Laura, that could have come from Davos last week.

[00:02:24] Speaker 2: So I think one of the interesting things. So I've actually got a piece coming out in the coming weeks on climate. And because we've traveled north to south to see what is basically a renewable revolution that's happened here in this country. And you're looking at deserts, entire deserts that are now a sea of shimmering photovoltaic panels staring up at the sun. They found a way just not just to kind of capture the sun, but to reflect it and turn it into energy. And then when it comes to there are no wind farms, oh, my goodness, everywhere you go, the ridgelines of Yunnan way in the south to the mountains and in Sichuan way up to the north and inner Mongolia, there are huge wind farms. In fact, this country is building more solar and wind than any of the rest of the world combined. There was a stat and I love this stat. When I spoke to one analyst, he said, there was a moment in May last year, where they were installing 100 solar panels a second. I think this is one of the things that gets me when we're talking about China, because I realize, and I live in this kind of space between the security concerns and the kind of benefits of China. Yes, I see the security concerns every day, you know, and I have to live that. But also traveling around this country, you see the vast possibilities from its thousands and thousands of kilometers of train tracks to this renewable revolution that is going through at the moment.

[00:03:50] Speaker 1: Right, those proverbs were excellent jumping off points, but time for the actual analysis of the actual news now on this episode of newscast. Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio, and we will hear from Darshini and Laura again in a second. But first of all, I just want to bring you one last Chinese proverb, which is a single conversation with the wise man is worth a month's study of books, which is very helpful, because this morning, just when I got out of the shower at home, I managed to catch up with Chris Mason, who was just getting on a bus, having watched Keir Starmer and Xi Jinping have their big meeting, which went on longer than people were expecting, and was maybe kind of surprisingly warm. And here's Chris's take on that meeting, some of the politics around the meeting, and some of the things that are starting to emerge as deals have been done between the UK and the Chinese. So Chris, where are you? What time is it? And what's happening?

[00:04:41] Speaker 4: I am in a minibus. And we're working our way through the traffic of Beijing down quite the kind of boulevard. Incredible lights on either side. It is almost seven o'clock in the evening, so it's dark. It's been cold all day, and it's still cold. And we're just making our way back from the Great Hall of the People, where there's been all sorts of stuff going on, signing ceremonies and meetings between the British guys and the Chinese guys, and carrying on the talks. Earlier on in the day, Chinese time, when you guys in the UK were still pretty much in bed, the Prime Minister was meeting President Xi for the main kind of set piece, bilateral as they call it in diplomatic circles between the two, between the two leaders, the kind of centrepiece really of this whole trip.

[00:05:30] Speaker 1: What's a good way of summing up how that went?

[00:05:33] Speaker 4: Well, I think the best way to sum it up, I think, is the kind of thrust of the message that the government's talking about the whole time really on this trip, which is kind of warming things up, warming up the relationship with China. As we were saying on the last newscast, I think it's been eight years since the British Prime Minister has been out here. It was Theresa May back in 2018. The kind of Prime Minister's diagnosis is that the recent relationship between the UK and China has blown very hot and then blown very cold. He reckons it should be much warmer and should be much more kind of consistent. And his argument is that this is a huge economy, it's a huge military, the Chinese economy making developments in all sorts of kind of cutting edge areas, quantum computing and AI, etc, etc. And it makes sense for the UK to have a closer relationship on that front. But it's a politically live argument, isn't it? Because we heard what Kerry Vader, not the Conservative leader, was saying yesterday that she wouldn't be here if she was Prime Minister. Alicia Kern, Shadow Foreign Minister, also pretty spiky in her response to the language that we heard from the Prime Minister after his meeting with President Xi. So that's the kind of domestic tram tracks of the political argument, but with the government absolutely leaning into the idea that they think this is not only a good idea, but overdue.

[00:06:49] Speaker 1: I also love how everyone is describing this visit as historic, because it's the first one in eight years, and the world we live in now, eight years passing, is history. But also it was interesting that Xi Jinping got a bit involved in British domestic politics, didn't he? Or at least what he said, which is always a little bit cryptic, is being interpreted as him having a pop at the Tory government, the previous one.

[00:07:09] Speaker 4: Yeah, on that historic point, it is a word that I think journalists and politicians ought to use rather sparingly, because very rarely are these moments truly deserving of that particular label, however much of a breakthrough they might represent for any government. And certainly when you walk around the Forbidden City in Beijing, or indeed the Great Hall of the People, you are reminded of the longevity of Chinese history. And whilst eight years is rather a long time, I suppose, as far as the Prime Minister sees it, from one prime ministerial visit to another, to this country, the grand sweep of the history of our two countries perhaps a little a little less so. And sorry, Adam, my sleep-deprived, jet-lagged brain forgotten the second bit of your question.

[00:07:52] Speaker 1: The fact that some of Xi Jinping's remarks are interpreted as having a pop at, well, David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Rishi Sunak, Liz Truss, and maybe now Kemi Battenhoek.

[00:08:04] Speaker 4: Yeah, it is quite something, not least because, you know, diplomatic convention tends to mean, I mean, obviously Donald Trump throws this convention to the wind, but diplomatic convention tends to mean that foreign leaders don't refer to the kind of party politics of what's going on in a country who you might be hosting. And yet in those opening remarks from President Xi at the meeting earlier on, he referred to the fact that, in his view, Labour governments in the UK tended to be more in favour of closer relationships with China. Now, I think it's probably one of those remarks that, I guess, might be seen to be sort of beneficial in every direction, in that if you're Kemi Battenhoek you would say, yes, too right, because we want to be more cautious. Keir Starmer says, too right, it's important that there is a closer relationship, and President Xi is making the argument there should be a closer relationship. Can I actually just bring you a smidgen of news, Adam, that comes our way as we record it. What is it? Is it 11 o'clock in the morning where you are? Is that right? I've lost track. Almost, almost. I think, yeah, that one of the outcomes from the conversation today is the rollout soon, we don't have a precise date yet, but of visa-free travel for Brits coming to China for under 30 days. So I can tell you from experience, because I had to go through the rigmarole of it last week in order to come on this trip, that sorting a Chinese visa is not the hardest thing in the world, but it takes quite a lot of time and it costs quite a lot of money. In other words, it is a friction in the relationship between the two countries economically, and I guess for tourists as well. Plenty of other countries, about 50 other countries have a similar arrangement for visa-free travel for a relatively short visit, around about a month, and that will be coming for Brits, we're told, pretty soon. It's not signed, it's not delivered yet, but the deal is signed off. So that is a tangible thing that the government will no doubt point to from this warming relationship with China.

[00:10:05] Speaker 1: So if you want to recreate the last series of Race Across the World, or at least the first four episodes, then you will now be able to do it without getting a visa. The other thing that's in that number 10 email that's got the visa-free travel announcement is this pointing the way towards some kind of trade deal on services, so the export of lawyers, architects, whatever. But that to me sounds very, very sketchy, and I don't mean sketchy in the sense of dodgy, I mean sketchy in the sense of not very full yet.

[00:10:32] Speaker 4: Yeah, I think clearly when you read that detail, it is lacking in being sort of nailed down. There's clearly a desire to keep on talking about it. It could be potentially pretty significant for the reasons that you outlined in terms of smoothing out trade, removing those frictions to trade. But yeah, one of those things on visas is a done deal. The other one is clearly still subject to quite a bit of chat.

[00:10:56] Speaker 1: And what's happening next? What's next on your itinerary? I'm just trying to get the whole bus vibe.

[00:11:01] Speaker 4: The bus vibe. So we are heading through fairly sticky traffic in the direction of a... we're going for our tea, actually. We're going for some food. And then we'll have a whole load of lunchtime news stuff to do, and then we'll be editing for the six o'clock news and all of that. It's this weird thing with the eight hour time difference, which means that when it's about half past five at night in the UK, it's about two in the morning when we were stalking the streets last night trying to find a little place to record a little thing for the telly. But it's a massive privilege to come out here, as I think I said to you yesterday, I've never been to China before. So it's fascinating to see and just get a little taste of. And then we'll head on to Shanghai tomorrow and hear more extensively from the Prime Minister because he'll do a range of sit down interviews, including with us. And then from there, it's a little drop into Japan. It's a ludicrous sentence, that isn't it? Dropping into Japan. But that's what we're going to do on the way back. So the Prime Minister can see the relatively new Prime Minister of Japan.

[00:12:01] Speaker 1: Although interesting that Starmer is going to Beijing and Shanghai, like the top two cities, he's not going to visit one of those other cities that maybe we in the West haven't heard very much about, but has got a massive population, is the world centre for the production of whatever. The sort of thing that George Osborne used to do when he would go to China as Chancellor, he would always tack on a sort of interesting destination in addition to the big ones.

[00:12:23] Speaker 4: Yeah, and maybe you know that the geography of this trip speaks to where the government seeks to land this warming up of the relationship versus where it was when we were in the, you know, pints in the pub in Oxfordshire and George Osborne's visits and the kind of places he went to into that period where there were no visits at all. And then this one, if you like, visiting the two principal cities that plenty in the West will be familiar with, but not one, you know, the many, many others that plenty of us won't be.

[00:12:54] Speaker 1: As a first timer to China, a country I've actually never been to, although I have been to Hong Kong, so I sort of have been to China now. Have you eaten anything particularly exotic?

[00:13:06] Speaker 4: Well, I tell you what, my impressions of the food, I'm a pretty nervous eater when I'm on my travels and forever being teased about the mac and cheese that I ordered in Japan a few years ago. My excuse was we were busy and I didn't fancy raw fish at that time of the day, but my experience of the food here is it's absolutely fantastic. And we had this sticky rice that was inside a holed out pineapple last night and then had bits of pineapple chunks in them. Absolutely terrific.

[00:13:35] Speaker 1: I reckon you could make that at home.

[00:13:37] Speaker 4: Well, it would be makeable at home, but it would be way beyond my skill set.

[00:13:43] Speaker 1: Right, Chris, safe travels. And yeah, we will tune in for your sit down interview with the Prime Minister in Shanghai in, I don't know, 20 hours time. Grand. I'll talk to you then. Okay, Darshini, there's loads of things we can pick up on there. First of all, the more sort of kind of granular thing is the deals or the prospects of deals that have been done. What's your take on what's emerged?

[00:14:04] Speaker 3: Well, this is, as we've been saying, the first visit by a British Premier in eight years. And China is the UK's fourth biggest trading partner. So you think so much potential there, so much opportunity. The deals, show us the deals. Actually, there isn't that much that actually moves the dial. Spoiler alert here. Right.

[00:14:21] Speaker 1: Even though there were 50 CEOs on the plane.

[00:14:24] Speaker 3: 50 CEOs on the plane. Have we managed to justify their efforts, do we think? And of course, the AMRs and the impact on the environment, et cetera, et cetera. As we record right now, the jury is really out. I mean, there is some stuff there that plays to the UK strengths. Now we've got AstraZeneca saying we're going to invest over 10 billion pounds over the next few years in China. And that is pharmaceuticals. And that is playing to the UK strengths because if you look at what Britain actually sells to China, the second biggest category of goods, pharmaceuticals. So that is something to go, yeah, okay, that is interesting. Would that have happened? And we always say this about all these deals without the government actually heading over there like this, quite possibly. We are waiting to hear what other deals in detail may have been done. It's been quite slow in coming, this kind of detail. In the meantime, we've had this whole list of things that they say are going to make for a more sophisticated economic partnership. And it says things like a feasibility study into whether or not to start negotiations over a bilateral services trade arrangement. What does that mean? It means you're nowhere close to actually closer relationships. There's a lot of warm words and intentions in there. Concrete action, not so much at the moment.

[00:15:36] Speaker 1: Laura, are there any deals you would like to pinpoint or promises of deals that you would like to zoom in on? Or do you want to zoom out and just talk about what this reveals about the relationship?

[00:15:45] Speaker 2: So I think first of all, the deals, we were expecting more. I mean, I've been speaking to businesses here for some time, and there was an expectation of more. Now the visit's not over. There may be more in the pipeline that we just don't know about, but there was an expectation of more. And I think perhaps I'm not quite sure what the sticking points are. But I think if we're going to start naming Chinese proverbs, be not afraid of going slowly, be afraid of standing still, which is about slow, slow progress. China likes to take things step by step. It won't want to go quickly here. And it may well be that there are other things that are under discussion that in the future might come up. But in all my conversations with business leaders, one of the things that they have told me is that a meeting like this, a visit like this, smooth things going forward. Remember, and it's not just China, it's right across Japan and South Korea. I find it's very kind of bogged down official society where they like you to do things properly. They like you to take the proper steps. So having this kind of leader to leader top down discussion, it allows officials to go, okay, we're now on friendlier terms. Let's have a smoother process. Let's have more meetings. And we can talk about this down the line. So it makes things a little bit smoother. It makes the wheels of business move a little bit smoother. And I think that might be where they reap the rewards in the future.

[00:17:10] Speaker 1: It's an unlocking process.

[00:17:12] Speaker 3: Yes, it is. Totally. It's smoothing the way. And it's interesting when you look at what they're saying. And Keir Starmer is saying, we want to have a more sophisticated relationship, taking it to the next level, you might say in normal relationship terms. And you look at the kind of areas in which there could be benefits that they talk about things like healthcare, education, also financial services, other business services, advertising, all the kind of things the UK does well, for example, in return technology, renewable infrastructure, the kind of stuff that China is really storming ahead with. These kind of changes do grease the wheels a little bit if you're trying to make those things happen a bit more quick or more easily. But don't forget the UK is playing catch up in many regards when it comes to what China's been doing with other countries as well. So we've got a long way to go. But yeah, these kind of things do help getting that face time. But you know, we are the Amazon Prime generation, we're used to having things turn up on the doorstep instantly. In terms of deliverables that are here today, we're not there.

[00:18:07] Speaker 1: Other delivery services are available, Darshini. Which countries have kind of, European countries, for example, have kind of beaten Britain?

[00:18:15] Speaker 3: Well, we've seen, you know, we were talking about visa free travel, weren't we, to China by UK professionals, which is the kind of thing that does help those working in the services industry quite a bit. But there's quite a few other countries, I think it's France, and Australia, and Royal Caribbean if I'm wrong, that have already seen that happening. So there's areas like that, where those kind of sticking points have been taken away. And obviously, there are loads to go through. But this is encouraging progress. But you know, what we see here is politicians, British politicians, and indeed business leaders having to inhabit that space that Laura was talking about there, you know, the opportunities on the one hand, really exciting opportunities, and all those concerns about security and the other.

[00:18:56] Speaker 1: Laura, let's talk about geopolitics. But actually, before we talk about geopolitics, let's talk about Westminster politics, and the fact that Xi Jinping was kind of prepared to go to the party politics in Britain when it comes to this country's relationship with his country.

[00:19:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, he praised the Labour government, and the Labour Party for its engagement process with China. So I'm not sure how the Labour government or the Labour Party will feel about that. It's unusual for him to mention actually any party. And when you know, but I think that that kind of stood out to me. If you want to speak about the geopolitics, I have to tell you this, I've just been watching and you know, it's not every day I watch the state media bulletin, but it's this flagship 30 minute program that goes out at seven o'clock. Guess how many minutes were spent on Sir Keir Starmer?

[00:19:43] Speaker 1: It's either going to be zero or more than you might expect.

[00:19:48] Speaker 2: 18 minutes.

[00:19:49] Speaker 1: 18? Half an hour?

[00:19:51] Speaker 2: 18 minutes out of your 30 minutes. I feel quite cheated. I might kind of go to the TV six and go look here.

[00:19:57] Speaker 1: Laura Bicker wants to be on the six o'clock news for 18 minutes every day now. I mean, I give you more than that, Laura. I mean, what's...

[00:20:05] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:20:05] Speaker 1: Maybe even Macron didn't get that when he was there.

[00:20:09] Speaker 2: So the other thing is they had this CCTV, which is one of their major broadcasters, they had this dramatic montage of President Xi welcoming Sir Keir Starmer with these warm words, and then some dramatic music underneath, you know, the kind of things that we cannot do. But yeah, 18 minutes looking at the whole visit, you know, every single frame of his tour of the Forbidden City was used. Every single frame of his kind of ceremonial welcome was used. But I think what this tells us is that this is not just a global sell for President Xi. This is not just him telling the world, look, the US is upending relationships, China's here to build them. This is him telling his own population. Why? Because it gives the country prestige. It gives the country a kind of an idea that China is trying to build, or the Chinese government is trying to build power and influence across the world. And they're trying to say, look, you can believe in the Communist Party. This is what we're delivering.

[00:21:12] Speaker 1: But Laura, and I know you use a very extreme metaphor, but it's just to make the point. I wonder though, sometimes does China and do Chinese people see the closeness of Britain and America? Sometimes like we're the 51st state, like forget Canada or Greenland. And actually, this is a bit like the governor of the 51st state coming to cosy up to China, which shows he's going cool on Washington.

[00:21:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, when it comes to Britain, Beijing has always viewed Britain as far too close to US. They believe that on foreign policy, London just simply follows Washington. And it's not just the Chinese government that believe it. Most people believe it. If you would go out in the street and ask people to say, oh, well, you're very close to the US. And that means strategically and politically, they believe that it's difficult for the UK to be independent, to have its own mind made up about China. Unlike, as they say, parts of Europe, perhaps France, Germany, other countries that they're having close relationships with. And it might well be. And this is one of the things that we wondered. Obviously, it needed this leader interaction for the UK to get visas. But the UK is one of the last countries. There are 70 countries around the world that have visa free travel to China at the moment. So we've been sitting as Brits going, I mean, I waited three years for my Chinese visa, just saying. But, you know, when it comes to visa free travel for tourists, Britain has been the outlier. When it comes to any visit by a leader of a country, Britain has been the outlier because others have just come, not worrying about what Donald Trump may say. And I think here, certainly when you speak to Chinese scholars, what they tell me is, oh, isn't it difficult for the UK prime minister to make decisions on his own without going to Washington and running it by them first?

[00:23:01] Speaker 1: Darshini, Laura was making the point earlier this week that Xi Jinping feels strong because he's one of the few world leaders who has gone mano a mano with Donald Trump on tariffs and basically won. That is worth remembering in all of this, isn't it?

[00:23:15] Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think perhaps Sir Keir Starmer would like to think he's got second place and being the first to get that trade deal over a line.

[00:23:22] Speaker 1: Because Britain is in a much better place than lots of other countries.

[00:23:24] Speaker 3: We are, and we did actually manage to get there. But having said that, it's interesting because when we talk about the fact that what we've seen so far has been, let's say, less than overwhelming. Why is that? Is it in part because the UK has tread this very careful line, right? We know that on the one hand, it's thinking right now is the time we can see the world being tipped upside down. We're going to get closer to China, get more of these opportunities. We're falling behind. And on the other, we don't want to upset President Trump over there. I mean, it's only a week since we had that climb down over tariffs, over opposition to him going into Greenland. So, you know, these are very febrile times. This is the UK treading a very delicate line between two perhaps less than reliable trading partners, both of which come with risks. And perhaps that is why when you look at that press release coming out of Downing Street and you think, really, is that it? Maybe that's politics. But they're trying to keep it slightly under the radar while saying, well, look, guys, we are doing more. Normally, we see much more in terms of, look, there's this manufacturer here with billions there, also missing so far. Any news of Chinese investment into the UK?

[00:24:30] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because normally on these trips, you get a sort of little mini spreadsheet from the government. They tot up all the deals that individual companies have done, which is not really that much to do with the government, let's be honest. Keir Starmer didn't do the final negotiations for Brompton Bikes to stock some more bikes in China. But yeah, that hasn't happened. Yeah, I hadn't really clocked that.

[00:24:48] Speaker 3: It hasn't happened. And it's fascinating, as you say, we often sit there and go, come on, couldn't this have happened anyway? Some of it has happened. You know, it's been announced already, et cetera, et cetera. But there's been, you know, more of an absence of it this time. We could still get some, obviously. And we are hearing noises. There might be some things in the offing. But on the whole, when you look at investment in the UK by China, it is less than a half of 1% of total UK foreign investment. You know, China likes to come in and have some pretty high profile investments. Let's say strategic stuff like steel or things like football clubs or cinema chains and things like that. But elsewhere, is there that much interest? And is that that much of a vote of confidence in the UK? That is not really there. And I do wonder if that sort of speaks a bit more to how China sees the UK.

[00:25:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been a real absence, Laura, this week of chat about Burberry, because whenever a British minister goes to China, there's always a deal for Burberry.

[00:25:43] Speaker 2: I have heard his name mentioned. But yeah, I think when it comes to Chinese investment in the UK, again, I have heard that that was going to happen. In fact, we were pretty certain. And actually, we've heard no announcement. As I said, it could still happen. But that might be something for the future now. In terms, yeah, the bikes, other bikes are available. The bikes are very popular here. We're looking at a more affluent Chinese society. But I do think there are warning signals for British businesses here as well. I think when I've spoken to the businesses on the lead up to this trip, many of them, and I've spoken to quite a few, have had to make severe cuts over the last few years, about 10% of their workforce to try to cut costs. And the reason for that is the COVID pandemic really affected businesses here. The closure of the borders, the really strict lockdown affected their business. And the other thing is, if you're looking at British brands, these are high end brands, whether it's Burberry, whether it's Brompton, and even the financial services, they're aiming at the more affluent Chinese. And right now, Chinese people are not spending money. It's one of the key problems with the Chinese economy. They've got really problematic domestic consumption. Folk are not spending their money primarily because house prices have fallen. They've absolutely tanked. And then, of course, you've got other issues like high youth unemployment. You've got manufacturing is slowing down. So there is a kind of slower economic growth happening in China, when once, if we go back to that time when David Cameron was having a pint with President Xi, you know, British businesses or any kind of foreign businesses here in China were the stars in the making. You know, the boardrooms would light up and go, oh, well done, China, you know, another year of double digit growth. That's not happening anymore.

[00:27:35] Speaker 3: Now, that is interesting because, you know, the whole rebalancing of China's growth quite intentionally, you know, away from being export led to being more domestic, hasn't really gone to plan. And it does mean that it's a very different economy. As Laura says, a very different audience for British businesses than, say, 10 years ago. And I was just thinking about that, because I've actually filmed in that pub around the back of checkers and it feels like a lifetime ago. That was pre-pandemic and it is a different era. And obviously, things have moved on drastically and British businesses are thinking about China in a very different way. It isn't so much about selling those higher end brands in, it is about how do you tap into this idea that they are the ones you need to go to if you want to find renewable infrastructure, for example, if you want the latest in cutting edge technology. But also, if you're a services company, if you're a financial services company, and it's quite notable when you look at who is actually endorsing the government's moves, it is the big beasts, so to speak, like the banks and accountancy firms. They are the kind of people who are looking to tap into these markets right now.

[00:28:32] Speaker 1: Laura, we talked the other day there about the almost kind of theatrical nature of how human rights issues are raised by British delegations in China and they sort of get brushed off by the Chinese. I'm guessing that's exactly what happened here again.

[00:28:45] Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, every single leader of a Western country comes here, every single time they say they bring up human rights, every single time it's an irritant for the Chinese and every single time they'll just push back and say, this is not a matter for you, this is an internal matter. And I think that's what's happened here. I think what Sakia Sarma was saying today is like, look, the whole reason we can even have these conversations and bring up human rights is because we're in the room. We're having these discussions. We're not just sitting in London, shouting with a megaphone far away and saying, this is a problem. We're able to have these discussions face to face and be candid about it. And I think, actually, the Chinese expect it. I think they respect leaders coming here and talking about human rights, even though it's an irritant to them. I think if they didn't bring it up, they would be surprised.

[00:29:36] Speaker 1: And I suppose that goes back to that aphorism that Xi Jinping used that we talked about right at the start of this episode about keeping your eyes on the horizon. Because if you're keeping your eyes on the horizon, that means your eyes are not looking at short-term problems, even if they're very serious, like a crackdown on democracy in Hong Kong, which divides Xi Jinping and Keir Starmer. Yeah. Now, Laura, you've worked so hard, but just before you go, we have got a message about your working environment. It's on our Discord server. And it's from Kevin. He says, is Laura Bicker doing lives outdoors at two o'clock Beijing time in minus four degrees weather on the six o'clock news? Was that the deal?

[00:30:13] Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, it was minus 14 at one point. So thank you very much for noticing. I really appreciate that someone actually noticed. Thanks. Thank you. We'll pass that on to Kevin. Yeah, for 18 minutes, 18 straight minutes. Yeah, yeah. Next time I want a full 18 minutes, but kind of be inside and not outside.

[00:30:31] Speaker 1: Actually, Darshini, this is a good bit to go behind the scenes of BBC News, that there has been a shift in the last few years from reporters standing outside buildings in the dark at 10 o'clock news when everyone in that building went home four hours ago to actually, you will pop up in the studio a lot more. In the studio. In the warmth.

[00:30:47] Speaker 3: Yes, in the warmth.

[00:30:48] Speaker 1: That has been a conscious decision, hasn't it?

[00:30:49] Speaker 3: And it's not because we're snowflakes, but you can tell the story better sometimes. You can have graphics. Sometimes you can have friends, you know. But yeah, I quite often have to do the 10 o'clock news standing outside the Bank of England, which is also sort of prime chucking out time in city pubs, isn't it?

[00:31:04] Speaker 1: Oh, right. That was always fun. Fans coming up to say hello.

[00:31:07] Speaker 3: That's a very polite way of putting it, Adam.

[00:31:09] Speaker 1: Laura, I can feel you shaking your head from thousands of miles away that that option is not available to you.

[00:31:14] Speaker 2: The time difference here is brutal. I was actually hoping Chris was going to come on because I was going to ask him, how is he? Because the time difference here is brutal. You have the whole day of things happening and then you've got the whole night of broadcasting to domestics and obviously the US. So yeah, I mean, there isn't an option. It isn't an option. We could just broadcast to the studio, but it does look nicer if you at least feel out and about.

[00:31:41] Speaker 1: My favourite story about standing outside a building at 10 o'clock at night to do the 10 o'clock news was actually in Brussels. And do you remember the day Theresa May did that last minute trip at four o'clock in the morning to get the sufficient progress in the Brexit negotiations to move them on? And I'd been doing every news programme under the sun since four o'clock that morning. The last thing was the 10 o'clock news. I was so tired and I'd done so much talking all day. And then in the middle of my life, it literally started snowing horizontally into my eyes. And it was just like, how am I meant to keep? I just can't. And people were like, oh, you seemed almost like emotional that we'd reached sufficient progress in the Brexit negotiations. I was like, no, it was snow in my eyes. And I know, Laura, that probably seems very, very lame compared to the weather conditions you're used to.

[00:32:27] Speaker 2: I've got one more. I had in really freezing conditions and deep snow in Northern Scotland, a whole bunch of guys stripped off. Wow. On camera. And I had to just say, you know, well, some are feeling the cold.

[00:32:46] Speaker 1: Wow. Right, we need to find that from the archives.

[00:32:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on YouTube somewhere.

[00:32:52] Speaker 1: Okay. On that note, Laura, you may go to bed now. Bye bye.

[00:32:56] Speaker 2: Night, night.

[00:32:57] Speaker 1: And Darshini, thanks to you too.

[00:32:59] Speaker 3: Thank you.