The Mom Group Chat Drama Reflects a Bigger System (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: I heard a rumor that one of the moms in this news story reached out to you. Well, yeah, Ashley.

[00:00:07] Speaker 2: Bury the lead, Dr. Sandorelli, you are the cause of this news story.

[00:00:14] Speaker 3: I was like, did I cause this?

[00:00:17] Speaker 2: Wait a second, the butterfly effect, are you serious? So I didn't get someone random here. You are, you're, what? I might be patient zero in this entire. Oh my goodness, oh my God.

[00:00:37] Speaker 1: Welcome to the assignment, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. All right, so Dr. Sandorelli, you're a clinical psychologist, okay? And you, this means you understand like family dynamics and group dynamics, and that's why you're here. Because for me, all I've done is go to middle school in America and read Lord of the Flies. And I'm like, that's the extent of my expertise. Have people been asking you about this story? Nonstop. Basically, you have a, you know, an actress from the aughts that people know quite well, Ashley Tisdale, née French, she goes by French now. And she has one of those sort of soft focus newsletters that teaches you how to make vegan cinnamon rolls and what her life is like in Montecito or Malibu or whatever. But the thing that got everybody's attention was this describing her decision to exit, I think a text chat, basically, which she called toxic. And the thrust of the essay makes a ton of sense to me, which says like, you know, sometimes there's a relationship that's not working out. There's a friendship that's not working out. There's something that doesn't really feel very good. And you should leave that. You don't have to stick around for that. Now, I thought this was all extremely on brand for this generation, that nobody would have a problem with this. And instead it completely explodes. To your mind, what is the tipping point that turned this from, you know, random substack and article in the cut into whatever this is?

[00:02:23] Speaker 4: I think because women are suffering and they've been suffering as mothers in mom groups. Say more. Suffering is a strong word. It is, it is. I think that they've been really feeling forced into these relationships, into these groups of moms that are primarily based on proximity or maybe one or two shared, you know, overlap, a school, a sports team. And I think as our communities start to really sort of erode, we're trying to make our own village. We're trying to make our own groups. And so we feel forced into these groups, again, based on proximity, school, neighborhood. Now that always is what a community was, but our roles have as mothers have also changed. And that's where the suffering part comes in. So I think in modern day motherhood or motherhood in 2026, 2025, 2024, we are no longer really served with the relational or connection component of motherhood, which is what used to build the communities, which is what used to build that cohesion within a group. And we are now working on optimizing childhood.

[00:03:41] Speaker 2: Optimization.

[00:03:42] Speaker 4: Like everything else in this world, why not? So most of the women in America, okay? So the women who are coming to me, not the celebrities, I think what Ashley Tisdale did touched on a real pain point that women in general are having, which is struggling within their mom group. Now, I don't know that her issues are the same as the regular moms who are coming to me, but it touched on a real pain point that regular moms in our culture are having.

[00:04:10] Speaker 1: These are women who we already laughed at the first time around when they were young stars, right? Some of the names that have come up, whether, and again, we don't know who's in the group chat, it's part of the speculation, but Mandy Moore or Ashley Tisdale or Hilary Duff, these are people who, in a way, weren't taken seriously by the culture, just by virtue of the kinds of things they made, which is shows for teens, shows for teen girls, and we kind of crap on things that teenage girls like as a culture. So these same people coming back and also being that thing that culture likes to make fun of, which is the mommy. And then there's the gossip industry fueling it, like this is absolute Instagram.

[00:04:57] Speaker 4: Absolutely, and I really think what Ashley did was hold a mirror up. A lot of the people that are resonating with this article are the people who enjoyed them as younger stars. They're about their age, right? Yeah, yeah. They are those mothers now that are really resonating with this story. And I think there's something with that age group as well. Now, this is a lifespan issue, right? We have in-groups and out-groups and covert bullying, relational aggression. We have that from childhood through, people write into me from nursing homes that there's girl groups that they're struggling with, right? So this is across generations, but I think the moms that this is really resonating with are the moms who enjoyed them as young stars, who were in that generation of Perez Hilton, of reading all those blogs, of reading all the, you know, Us Weekly. And so this is hitting that, it's almost also hitting like that nostalgia spot.

[00:06:02] Speaker 1: When you talk about generation, the thing that also strikes me, I think it was in her original sub stack, but she mentioned specifically COVID. Yes. Specifically the idea that there is a generation of moms who, and I'm technically in this as a kid around that time, but it was my second child. And so I knew what was coming in terms of the isolation or the identity issues, all of those things. They had that experience in a kind of isolation. And she wrote about how, like this is a generation of moms that like they didn't get the baby shower, they didn't get this event or that event. And then even when they have their child, the isolation of that was compounded by the pandemic quarantines. And so they really, in a way it helped me immediately understand why something like who you're communicating with via text chain would feel so high stakes. Absolutely. Because this is your literal lifeline or psychological lifeline to the person you used to be. Absolutely. Like the woman who has fun and is hanging out with friends and making jokes and talking about your work or whatever. You actually, everything is high stakes. Absolutely.

[00:07:24] Speaker 4: The high stakes is sort of why we start seeing all of these emotions exploding and coming out. I don't think any of this has to do with who's a mean girl or who's toxic. First of all, I hate the word toxic. I understand that it is catnip, like you said, for Instagram or for, right? I get that. But toxic can mean so many things and that word is applied so carelessly. I absolutely.

[00:07:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's therapy speak. I'll be honest with you. Not my therapy. It's complete. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of stuff out there. I go in the comments and people are like, well, I mean, it looks like so-and-so's a narcissist and it looks like so-and-so's really toxic and maybe this person was love bombing. And I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like everyone, go back to your own therapy session.

[00:08:14] Speaker 4: Right, and we've, as a culture, right? We've really struggled to be able to communicate effectively. We are really struggling with the ability to rupture and repair, which is a huge thing that we work on in therapy. So in therapy, my goal is to teach people that you can have a rupture. You can have a rupture with me as your therapist and my job is to teach you how to repair that.

[00:08:42] Speaker 1: Which is hard for generation ghosting. Correct. Right, like if you came up in an era and I, I'm terrible at this. Like I actually have a hard time saying goodbye to people and it is sometimes easier to just keep being a little more busy and a little more busy and not around than it is to say, hey guys, vibing here is not good. I don't know if I'm feeling it anymore. I have to go. It feels somehow like that's an unnecessary interaction. And a lot of people who have seen this news story, news story, have said, did she really need to write an essay about this? Like is part of the problem, the sort of to-do she made about it? And I, yeah, I wondered about that as well.

[00:09:27] Speaker 4: I take, I stand on two sides of it, right? So as someone who's experienced or felt like I've experienced what I believe she's alluding to in her article, like I've had that vibe. I've felt that vibe. Which is I'm being left out or just define it. I'm being iced out. People don't like me or there's something about me or my family or my child, or there's something they don't like about me. I really don't know what it is. I really am a very direct person. And so I really would prefer someone to tell me, hey, I don't like that you did X, Y, or Z, or you're too loud, or we don't like your kid or whatever it is, right? But most people, most women, at least the ones that I have been around that aren't in my therapy room, have a really hard time, like you said, with sort of saying very directly, I don't like the vibe I'm out of here, or I don't like what you did. Can we talk about it? Most people now are much more comfortable using the covert behaviors to give you that message that they want you out. Now, should Ashley have written a blog post about it? If you're a regular mom, no, you should not. Please do not. I am thankful.

[00:10:50] Speaker 2: Don't turn it into marketable content?

[00:10:52] Speaker 4: No, don't announce it on Facebook, to your community.

[00:10:56] Speaker 1: Yeah, rage bait your friends and family.

[00:10:59] Speaker 4: But I am thankful that she gave the women that come to me that are actually struggling with relational trauma from the degree to which mom group drama can get so bad, I am so thankful she gave them a word and a voice. I am thankful she used her influence to name something that many women are silently struggling with. Well, they're embarrassed, right? They're embarrassed. I was embarrassed. I am a very independent, not a sort of like, I gotta go with the group, I've gotta always have, I'm an independent thinker. This was my first ever experience in my 40s of feeling the anguish of what happened? You're looking around like, what is this? I'm a pretty like, again, you can come to me, you can talk to me, I'm open-minded, I'm a therapist. I gave bids for what happened, is something wrong? Can you tell me what's happening? Which I have a feeling Ashley did that. I know she didn't put in her article that she had conversations. Again, just from the work that I do, I believe she probably had one-on-one conversations with some of those people before she finally sent a message saying, I'm outta here.

[00:12:13] Speaker 1: One of the things that also, I think, turned this into a larger conversation is one of the husbands in the alleged mom group weighed in. This was the husband of an actress, Hilary Duff. So here we are, we don't know who's in the group, and then he kind of makes a joke, a visual joke on Instagram that implies that they know her. And I think that really turned into a thing. Like, we might've had a nice conversation about women and vulnerability in group dynamics, and then all of a sudden ensail someone's husband to say, actually, you're a bit of a narcissist, and trying to, like, I think he said something like, other women might wanna turn to their actual toddlers rather than deal with you. That was sort of the implication of his post. And I remember thinking, like, oh, that's also very millennial, that he, like, the partner, instead of the era of men being like, oh, the women are chatting, I'm not involved with that, all of a sudden, like, he's the Instagram boyfriend who has thoughts that no one asked for.

[00:13:21] Speaker 4: And from where I stand, of course he is. This is what I see every single day in my practice. So the mom drama is not about mom drama anymore. Mom drama is family systems issues. The drama that's going on in these mom groups is expanding to entire family units. Wait, are you serious? I am dead serious. I was waiting for this to happen, and there it was. What do you see in your practice? What do people say? So moms will be fighting from, like, book club or from school drop-off or from sports teams. Now, you have to remember, I have older kids, and most of my clients who come to me with this drama have older kids. Most of this isn't starting until school-aged, I would say. Maybe even a little, like, older elementary. That's when it really, the stakes get higher. We are living in a very unstable, it feels, environment currently, and people are getting nervous about their kids' positions. There's a lot of scarcity mixed with surveillance. Everything we do is watched and seen.

[00:14:34] Speaker 1: Wait, are we still talking about kids?

[00:14:36] Speaker 2: You're scaring me, Dr. Cedralli. Hey, I get real dark, but yes.

[00:14:41] Speaker 1: I know. Well, I'm trying to think of what you're saying, and here's where it is making sense, which is that there's, I just had this the other day, oh my God, now that I'm thinking about it, where something irritated me, and I said, you know, typically I would not care about this, and I would tell this person to take a hike. However, there's a relationship with my kids that I have to maintain. There is something for my children I need to make sure is okay, and therefore, I am gonna do what it takes to make things better for them or to protect, as you said, whatever kind of resource. I'm using your language now, too. Whatever resource it is, you want your kid to still have access to it. And that's the stakes. That's the stakes. Yeah, okay. You got me.

[00:15:30] Speaker 4: And again, this is just what I'm seeing, and this is part of what I started experiencing. When I was in this mom group, you know, I have friends from high school still. I have friends from college still. Like, I'm pretty sociable, and I'm a little bit take-it-or-leave-it. Like, if a group doesn't like me, I promise you, I am not typically the type who would be like, please keep me. Like, no, I would walk. I was not walking because of my kid, because if I walked, the implications that would trickle down to my kid would have limited his access to things that I felt were really important in his life and he felt were really important in his life. And so you feel trapped, 100%.

[00:16:15] Speaker 1: Just people aren't like, well, I don't like so-and-so's mommy, but you should still play together. Not at all. They just make it so that those interactions don't happen. It's access. Yeah, now that you're saying it, it is.

[00:16:30] Speaker 4: And, you know, think about with COVID, right? That group becomes your lifeline. It becomes your infrastructure. It becomes how you drive carpool, how you get your information.

[00:16:43] Speaker 1: Or get a chance to leave the house. Like if you're in the baby phase, like sometimes that's the opportunity to actually interact with somebody who is not fed by a bottle.

[00:16:56] Speaker 4: Absolutely. It becomes, it starts to feel like protection and like an absolute need. And it is a need to have human connection and community. And I do think it's lacking for most people. And so we're trying to build it. We're trying to find it. But we're in sort of an environment where there's scarcity, there's competition, there's instability, economically speaking. And so naturally that brings out, you know, pack-like behavior. Here we are, back to Lord of the Flies. When resources are scarce and you have a child to protect or a child's gonna notice or a child's gonna lose access, that mama bear instinct comes out. So when I started experiencing this, I started to put my psychological hat on and I was like, wait a minute, I've seen this before. What is this? And that's when I started to realize this is a tale as old as time. It's just coming out in a different grouping.

[00:18:00] Speaker 1: I guess you wanna feel like you've outgrown it. You know, like I grew up someone very sort of left out. And to this day, I think as a result, I don't run in packs. Like I tend to mate with one or two people as a friend and my group chats are small. I was never in a sorority. Like I don't know what it is to have the female friendship model that runs at scale. And it's actually kind of scary when I'm in those environments. The one mom group I joined physically, and this was just before, this was before the pandemic. You know, I went at desperation. I arrived there in tears. It was like, I heard there's a room of people at the library who also have kids and I'm going there. I could not, it was an emergency situation by the time I tried to connect with other women. You felt an emergency within you, emotionally. Yeah, like I was not doing well. And I was like, I have to go be with other people. And later on, when I became more experienced as a mom, I made a priority to have female friends and kind of with children, other parents with children of my own choosing. Yes, yes, I think that is absolutely. Like not waiting until you're in crisis mode. Because if you're busy being cool girl, we all know cool girl, a cool girl becomes like cool mom as well. You know, that person that everyone's trying to like, impress and that person that's like, this is easy and all this stuff. And I'm not like the other moms. To me now, when I hear like, I'm not like the other moms, I'm like, uh, danger, you haven't processed. Right, right.

[00:19:42] Speaker 4: Because like, I can't deal with that. And again, this becomes a family issue, right? Because now people start vacationing as families, which I don't remember ever. How is that a thing? It's come up and I was like, wait, what? Like, yeah. Together? The whole family, right? So it becomes a family thing and what family's in and what family's out. And usually the moms.

[00:20:06] Speaker 1: Nevermind the cost and status of that. Do you have the finances to pull off whatever vacation they're creating? Do you like, it becomes part of your status management. Exactly. Which is exhausting. And you're like, wait a second, I thought it was just wood paneled station wagon. And we're driving to Maine. And we go by ourselves. Yeah. Like, why are we now trying to get an Airbnb? Like, it's not spring break. Every vacation is spring break now. This is why I needed an expert. I know. And for sure. I don't know about what it's like to be in these groups and I stay away from them for these reasons, but I also sometimes feel loss. Like, oh, is there a world for me that would be fuller for me, my family, my children, if I was just able to function in a pack of women?

[00:20:56] Speaker 4: I will say no. I will say no for you because you have to know yourself. And I think that's part of the problem, right? Like, I am not a pack person. You know, I was the worst pledge. I had to drop out of my sorority. I wouldn't listen. I'd unplug the phone when the olders would call and say, you got to do this. I'd be like, I'm not doing that. I'm not a pack person. I tried to do it for my kid because my kid wanted that grouping. My kid wanted that community. And it was the wrong people for me, but I tried to fit in for him. You know, like we joke all the time, if I was back in New York or on Long Island, what would I have had these problems? I don't know.

[00:21:36] Speaker 1: Was- Well, you would have been the right culture fit, right?

[00:21:39] Speaker 4: Exactly, exactly. And so I really do encourage parents to do exactly what you did, which is to look for groupings based on shared interest and values, not just proximity. Not just proximity.

[00:21:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, which is tough. Because proximity does matter. Being in the neighborhood matters, that sort of thing. Like, it's hard. It's really hard. And I don't want to be on hinge for mom groups, you know? I don't want to have to do all that. But maybe now that you're saying all this, it is making me realize the actions I've already taken in my life to do what you're saying. Like, that I have a mom group, but they are actually moms who are sort of similar to me. We're actually in the same line of work. The other parents, we all hang out, but we're not in the same school system. We're not dependent on each other in that way.

[00:22:26] Speaker 4: The infrastructure, right? Your relationships can be based on relationships and not your infrastructure in your motherhood and your parenting and your family doesn't depend on it. So you're in relationships where it's based on connection, relationship, shared values, communication. But if you have a falling out, the infrastructure of your life is not dependent on those relationships.

[00:22:54] Speaker 1: Oh my God. That's amazing. Maybe I did learn something. After my, I just, well, you know what? I think I disagree. No, I went to your Instagram because someone sent you to me in this context. A mom sent you to me and said, this woman is really good on this topic. And I heard a rumor that one of the moms in this news story reached out to you. Well, yeah, Ashley.

[00:23:22] Speaker 2: Bury the lead, Dr. Sandra Elliott, bury the lead.

[00:23:27] Speaker 4: She didn't reach out to me, but when she posted her article, I commented on her article because I'm really pleased because again, I want women that feel trapped and that feel like they are suffering because their infrastructure of their life and their children's lives depend on these mom groups. I want them to know they're not alone and that they can break free and that they can break free and they can get away and that even Ashley Tisdale feels this. So I commented and she commented back to me that it was one of my posts that she saw that made her feel like she wasn't alone in this.

[00:24:03] Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

[00:24:04] Speaker 4: So, yeah.

[00:24:07] Speaker 1: You're patient zero. You are the cause of this news story.

[00:24:12] Speaker 3: I was like, did I cause this?

[00:24:15] Speaker 2: Wait a second. The butterfly effect. Are you serious? So I didn't get someone random here. You are, you're- I might be patient zero in this entire- Oh my goodness. Oh my God. Well, thank goodness we're talking. Isn't this great? Yeah. And I will say- Wait, so when you were watching it unfold, were you like, this feels familiar, some of the language in this- Literally.

[00:24:45] Speaker 4: Someone sent me the article, I read her blog and I was like, oh, yeah, that's what I- Well, she also talked about the cycle because I talk a lot about how it cycles in some of these unhealthy mom groups. And I was like, hey, that sounds really familiar. So hey, she learned something, but she said it made her feel not alone and like this can be happening. Now her kids are younger. Obviously, I don't know the details of their exact mom group, if the kids were friends, not friends, but from the people I see in my practice, a lot of moms are stuck because of the children and the infrastructure and the high stakes that they feel.

[00:25:24] Speaker 1: Okay, so let me get down to business and be professional then, because you obviously, you don't just talk about this, you have some ways to think about it. And first, it's that it's a cycle, the mean girl mom cycle, and I'll run through some of the levels for people, love bombing, so you being welcomed with open arms, and then exclusion, without warning, the shift begins. This actually sounds like a few relationships I've been in actually. And then it goes to gossip and smear campaigns, which this gets to why we even use the term mean girl, right, like this part of it, how women, heterosexual women in particular, but I think this spans sexual identities, maintain control and power in a relationship, that it is done through a series of things that are like, honestly, pretty passive aggressive, or sometimes aggressive aggressive. And then it says the worst word on this cycle, repeat. Yeah, the Hoover stage, like a vacuum. Now, when this happened with a man, I finally broke away, do you know what I mean? It was like, but we just identified this problem of this connection of your infrastructure, your family, your husband, the neighborhood, whatever. So what do you actually tell people about breaking said cycle?

[00:26:44] Speaker 4: So I tell people, and this is gonna sound very psychology speak, and every psychologist says it, but you have to name it to tame it. We have to know that if you recognize that it's not necessarily about you, it's actually not even about the group. Because most of the people individually, they're not these like monsters, they're not actually mean girls. They're also a product of a system that is creating this pressure, and these feelings of high stakes. And it's about the dynamic, not any of the individual people. So if you can recognize it, that can dial down the intensity a little bit of that feeling of like, I'm drowning, I'm suffering, I'm trapped. And you can start to open your eyes a little bit broader to say, I'm part of a bigger system, and I'm gonna choose to step out. And my infrastructure, I can create it in other ways.

[00:27:32] Speaker 1: That's the hard part. You don't think you can, just like any relationship that you feel like you can't leave. That if you're in a romantic relationship, and you're like, well, who's going to love me like this ever again? You do feel like, wait, I have to rebuild this all over again. I have to tell everyone all the things I've been complaining about my spouse all over again.

[00:27:55] Speaker 4: And that shame component, when you're just posted on Instagram that you're in a serious relationship, and then you're like, do I ever wanna tell everyone that it didn't work, or that I wasn't able to maintain it? So there's that shame component too.

[00:28:10] Speaker 1: Is there also a problem with my favorite oxymoron, social media etiquette? Meaning you can't unfollow. You like this thing, you don't like that thing. You put a star next to it, whatever this nonsense is. It's been the most irritating part of social media for me. The idea that people monitor each other's behavior, not even just word, just behavior. Have you followed this person? Have you unfollowed this person? Which weirdly, psychologically traps you into seeing content you have no interest in.

[00:28:39] Speaker 4: Absolutely, and that's part of what I consider the pressure cooker model of modern day motherhood, and this cycle we're seeing, that's the surveillance.

[00:28:49] Speaker 1: I'm very liberal with the mute button. Yeah, you're constantly. Because I learned the hard way that it's a thing. I think, oh, we're not friends anymore, so why do, is that a thing? Like, we didn't have a falling out, so why does this need to be a conversation?

[00:29:04] Speaker 4: Some people think it needs to be a conversation. But you're watched, right? Your parenting's watched, your relationships are watched, everything's watched, and so everything, again, high stakes, right? Like, when you're constantly being watched and you feel like you're getting a performance evaluation, it's not mothering anymore, it's not relational. It's optimization and it's you're a project manager. It starts to feel like your relationships are part of the project.

[00:29:30] Speaker 1: People grow, people change, relationships end. I'm sure a wise person once said that you have a text group for a reason or a season. And so, do we also need to kind of, I don't know, get over ourselves?

[00:29:51] Speaker 4: I think two things from a psychological standpoint. I think we have to get better at tolerating distress and teaching our kids how to tolerate distress. You will not be invited to everything. There's not room for everyone all the time. And that doesn't mean people are purposefully hurting you. Sometimes it does mean that. We also have to get better with nuance. Not everything is black or white, in or out, right? There's nuance. And so, we have to get better at tolerating distress and teaching our kids how to tolerate distress without cutting someone off or leaving. It's back to that rupture and repair. We have to get better at that. And we have to get better at conflict resolution and communication. We just have to learn the skills so we don't act it out. So, I have to be able to say, I didn't like when you did that to me, Adi. And you have to be able to tolerate the distress of being told something negative and say, let me think about that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that. And then I have to learn how to tolerate the distress or to give grace and say, thank you. And then maybe we can move on.

[00:31:10] Speaker 1: You don't have an answer right now, but okay.

[00:31:12] Speaker 4: Let's just agree to disagree in part ways. So, those things I think have to happen in this world.

[00:31:19] Speaker 1: How have your own, are you in a mom group now? Trick question. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:31:24] Speaker 4: No.

[00:31:25] Speaker 2: Not like I used to be. I'm not either. Oh my God. This is amazing. We're the best people for this conversation. I'm not in a mom group. I have one mom group.

[00:31:34] Speaker 1: It's called like the super, it's called Type A Super Moms. And we're literally too busy to text each other. Do you have a spot open for someone who doesn't text? Yeah, seriously. We're just like, hey, sketch you later. Okay. So, I guess maybe this episode is for women who don't run in packs or for people who- Right, or want to leave a pack.

[00:31:56] Speaker 2: Have other kinds of relationships. Maybe we're not the best, but- But there's nothing wrong with it either.

[00:32:01] Speaker 4: If that is what works for you. Yeah. Because I know a lot of moms, so I have a lot of mom friends, but I'm not in a group. Right, same. And those mom friends are in groups and it is wonderful for them. They love it. They love every piece of it. And that's great for them. My message is, if it's not great for you, that's okay. You're not damaging your child. You're not ruining their future. You can find access to the things you need for your kids. You're not failing your kid just because you can't fit in a mom group. And that's what a lot of the moms start to feel. So my message is for, you can run alone. You can be okay and collect, have friends, but you don't have to be in this group.

[00:32:42] Speaker 1: And in a way that applies to so many things in our lives because it is difficult to make friends as you get older. It's difficult to hold on to friends as you get older and it's easy to misconstrue certain signals and it's easy to, there's a lot of miscommunication that can happen in this world full of communication.

[00:33:02] Speaker 4: And we need to be with people that aren't competing with us. Make your mom friends, friends that are rooting for you, not these smaller circles where, you know, you're all fighting for the same spot on the same sports team because that's gonna breed competition, which breeds a lot of this relational aggression or feeling iced out or hot or cold. You know, this morning I went to my son's school for a performance he was in and some of the moms didn't know I was there. And so they all sent me pictures. These aren't in a mom group, but that was genuine, like, I support you. I support your child, you know? And I felt that, that felt good to me. These are people that are there for me and my kid outside of what I'm offering them or worried that my kid's gonna get their kid's spot.

[00:33:54] Speaker 1: So everybody's talking about this. What is one thing you wish they were talking about that they're not? Because you're seeing all the reactions to this story.

[00:34:03] Speaker 4: I wish they were talking about the systems behind the actions. I wish they were talking about what's driving some of this, not just the end result or the behaviors that we're seeing. I want them to slow down and think about what feels good to me about my mom group, what feels bad to me about my mom group. A little more observation of the system that they're living in, rather than pointing fingers at individual people as good or bad.

[00:34:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, because it reached the point where people started to look into her politics and say, oh, she said something about Charlie Kirk one day and maybe her liberal mom group doesn't like her. And I just thought, okay, this is when you know a media story, a culture story is spiraling out of control when it starts to draw in the elements of politics for like no reason, no real connection.

[00:35:04] Speaker 4: They were looking up, she's actually a registered Democrat. Like people are looking up how she's registered. Well, and when Hillary Duff's husband clapped back and he Photoshopped a picture of himself.

[00:35:18] Speaker 1: With a joking headline satirizing her original essay and calling her selfish and self-involved.

[00:35:26] Speaker 4: That had an element of the sort of maliciousness that I think Ashley was speaking to in her article. This sort of like, I'm gonna do something that's pretty snarky or sarcastic. I call it anger with a top hat on. It wasn't just saying, I don't like what I've seen lately or, but it was a personal attack. And that's the part. I do feel that hers was more about the group dynamic saying this dynamic wasn't for me. I think he went and made it personal.

[00:36:08] Speaker 1: Yeah. And spun it into this. Dudes, dude, sit down. Yep.

[00:36:17] Speaker 4: And other husbands got involved too, right? Then the other husbands started getting involved. Right. Get your own group. But again, just imagine if the kids were older. Of course the kids would get involved, especially if they're at the same school. And that's what I'm seeing is this trickle down.

[00:36:34] Speaker 1: Yeah. Before I let you go, tell everyone where they can find you, online and elsewhere.

[00:36:40] Speaker 4: Sure, so I am mostly on Instagram. It's just my Dr. Noelle Santorelli. I am in private practice in Atlanta doing individual psychotherapy and I'm adjunct faculty at Emory, so I do some supervision. But if you want access to me, it's gonna mostly be via my Instagram. Thank you.

[00:37:06] Speaker 1: One of those stories where it hits you in the cultural solar plexus.

[00:37:11] Speaker 4: Yeah, and what a great culture and pop culture, right? Like they really do overlap.