Gisèle Pellicot’s story and the fight to shift shame (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Laura, today we're going to be talking about one of the most amazing women in the news for the last 25 years that I can remember.

[00:00:09] Speaker 2: That's right, Giselle Pellicot, a name that will be familiar I'm sure to every newscaster. I think it is a name that not just was in the headlines but became iconic to many people. She was the French woman who had the courage to tell her own most appalling, harrowing story in a courtroom in a quiet part of France over many weeks and many months. Victoria, our colleague, is going to tell us about her exclusive UK interview with Giselle Pellicot, her extraordinary story and also how she is trying to turn the horror of what happened to her into a testament to actually how shame can be transferred. It's one of the powerful messages that she has said publicly and she said outside the courtroom that the shame should not belong to her, it should belong to the perpetrators.

[00:01:00] Speaker 1: So we know because she allowed her anonymity to be waived that she was drugged and raped by her husband who then invited dozens of strangers to join him in raping her, filming it. There's also a horrible suspicion he may have done the same to their daughter. However, Victoria is going to tell us that she's been changed by the hope that Giselle has expressed and we'll hear a little bit of Victoria's exclusive interview on this Saturday's newscast.

[00:01:33] Speaker 2: Hello, it's Laura in the studio.

[00:01:34] Speaker 1: Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.

[00:01:36] Speaker 2: And newscasters, please be aware that some of the things that we're going to talk about with Victoria and her interview with Giselle Pellicot are of course upsetting, harrowing and as ever, we should say there's tons of help and support out there, which you can find on the BBC Action Line website. There are all sorts of organisations that help with these kinds of dreadful issues that too many people have been victim to over the years.

[00:01:59] Speaker 1: So let's meet Victoria to hear more about what's happened with this encounter. Hello, Vic.

[00:02:05] Speaker 3: Hi, Paddy. Hi, Laura.

[00:02:07] Speaker 2: How are you? Great to have you with us. So before we talk about what actually she says in the interview, I just wonder, what was the experience of meeting her? You know, someone that even as journalists, we saw her image, we saw her walking into court with such dignity on many times. Just what was it like when you met Giselle Pellicot?

[00:02:28] Speaker 3: I was really apprehensive about meeting her. I knew a lot about the case, an awful lot of the detail of what she had been subjected to. I knew a lot about the accused, the 51 men who were convicted. I knew very little about her, apart from some of the statements she made in court and that powerful plea, Laura, that you referenced at the beginning, that shame must change sides from the victim to the rapist. And that obviously was a conversation that resonated around the world. I knew that she was at the centre of the largest rape trial in French history, a case that shocked France, that shocked all of us, actually. And I'd read her memoir four times. And I was nervous about meeting her because I didn't know, it wasn't one of those interviews where you have a briefing conversation with the guest beforehand over the phone, I didn't know how open she was going to be about some really horrific and devastating experiences. And yeah, I was in a small way stressed because I only have O-level French and I'd been told that Madame Pellicot has a little bit of English. And so I was desperately learning some French via my sister's best friend, who is half French, because I wanted to greet her in French. I wanted to say I'd read the book. I wanted to say how the book had left me feeling and I wanted to tell her it was an honour to meet her. So that was a little bit of the background.

[00:03:59] Speaker 1: And just before we get into listening for ourselves, how did reading the book leave you feeling, Vic?

[00:04:06] Speaker 3: I mean, it's obviously horrific. She experienced the most devastating betrayal by her husband of almost 50 years. And yet, and yet, I felt this sense of hope by the end of it, because she is determined not to be overwhelmed or defined by what has happened to her. And she has chosen not to be consumed by hatred or anger. She has chosen to think life is short, I am still alive despite this horrific ordeal, and I am choosing the light, if you like. I felt uplifted by the end.

[00:04:58] Speaker 2: And she had huge support also by people right around the world, just, you know, ordinary people seeing the story on the news, of course, but also some big names, including the Queen, reached out to her during the court case. Do you think she was surprised by the level of support and what role did that support that she received play in how she handled it?

[00:05:24] Speaker 3: She was definitely surprised. As soon as she let the world know who she was and opened up that trial, which was her profound decision that's changed the course of the rest of her life, people started to gather outside that courtroom in Avignon, particularly women, and each day they would form a guard of honor. And when I think about this, it makes me like I can feel the hairs on the back of my neck and on my arms, like a guard of honor as she walked into that courtroom every day, and then applause as she left there each evening. And that is just extraordinary. People wanted to support her and say thank you for what she was doing. And at the end of the trial, she told us that she received a letter from Her Majesty the Queen, completely unexpected. It really took her aback. And Camilla, who we know has done a lot of work for survivors of abuse, told her that she was courageous, that she was graceful, that she was dignified for the way she coped with what she had been subjected to, and that she had left this powerful legacy of changing sides. And Giselle Pellicot said she was honored when she received that letter. She could not believe, as she put it, that the Queen of England knew about her case.

[00:06:41] Speaker 1: One of the truths that she's told you is that she's looked into what could be the motivations for the crime and committed on her. And she thinks it's because, possibly because she was a strong, independent woman and he had asked her to get involved in sex parties and she'd said no. And so almost he took her strength and drugged her because she was so strong, Victoria. Can you explain more about what she told you about that?

[00:07:10] Speaker 3: Yes, she said that she was, these are her words, she was an unbreakable woman. And for some reason, her husband, the love of her life, had wanted to break her. Now, it is in part because he'd wanted to do things which she rejected. And she made that very clear. It is in part because he was starting to spend a lot of time on the internet and he ended up in the darkest corners on the most horrific forums. One was called Without Her Knowledge, for example, and he started to talk to other men and learn about how you could drug somebody and, you know, chemically make them submit. And her view is that because she said no in life to his fantasies, that he found a way of making her submit to what he wanted to do.

[00:08:04] Speaker 2: It's just jaw-droppingly awful.

[00:08:08] Speaker 3: I mean, it's unbelievable. It is unbelievable that anybody could do that to anybody else. And it's unbelievable that most of the accused pleaded not guilty, even though her husband had filmed all the rapes. So she had damning evidence, which most women in rape trials do not have. And yet still they were saying, no, I didn't rape her because her husband was there. So that was the consent, it was just unreal.

[00:08:42] Speaker 2: And what was her attitude to those other men? Obviously the primary hideous surprise in her that the love of her life would do that to her. But did she tell you about her attitude to the other men who were involved?

[00:08:55] Speaker 3: She couldn't believe that fathers, husbands, grandfathers, people who went about their daily lives as shop workers and IT specialists and volunteer firefighters and, you know, truck drivers would, in the dead of night, go into someone's home and rape a clearly lifeless woman, and then the next morning go about their lives. It's just, it is actually unbelievable.

[00:09:27] Speaker 1: One of the things that struck me as I saw the coverage as it unfolded is, once she'd taken the decision to give her name to the world, I thought it was even more important to know the names of the perpetrators, their lives, their jobs. They don't have the right to that privacy, and I thought, you've touched on it there, we need to know what those men are like, because in a way, unfortunately, they appear to be everyone. Everyone is covered. Of course, they aren't, because obviously they are criminals who've taken part in this, but their life stories are just so mundane and so ordinary that that's one of the things that I took from it, and I'm hearing you say, yes. One of the things I wanted to, what we both wanted to ask you about is, from this courtroom location, where we've heard about her first, you chose for the TV an absolutely, well, I suppose, a beautiful, spiritual place, almost, to do the interview.

[00:10:24] Speaker 3: Yes, we wanted the location to be, obviously, in France. Madame Pellicot used to live in Paris when she was younger, her and her husband moved to the south of France to live out the rest of their days, as she put it, to retire in Provence, but they spent much of their life in Paris, and her children and grandchildren still live around Paris. She loves the capital, and the building, the setting, the Hotel de Ville in Paris is absolutely stunning. We felt it was fitting for a petite, elegant woman who made it clear in her memoir that she would get up every day before her trial, and she would dress elegantly, and she would put her makeup on because she wanted to show to the world that she was strong, and so we felt that this was fitting. When she arrived, she told us how beautiful this building was, how stunning the room was, and that she felt comfortable there.

[00:11:30] Speaker 2: Let's then hear your conversation, or part of her conversation, with you, Victoria, and she starts by telling you about the impact that her husband's crimes had on her.

[00:11:41] Speaker 4: I tell myself that it's impossible that this man, with whom I shared my life for so many years, could have committed all these horrors. I tell myself that my life is a field of ruins, everything is collapsing, I have lost everything, I have nothing left. It's only my children who will arrive the next day, and it's like going down to hell. It's really like going down to hell, for me, but also for my children. It's a totally destroyed family. We are pulverised in horror.

[00:12:09] Speaker 3: You were actually angry with yourself that you hadn't noticed anything in the nine years at least that he was drugging you with his own anxiety and insomnia medication, poisoning your glass of wine or your food in the evening. Why were you angry with yourself? You made the remarkable decision to let the world know who you are, to waive your legal right to anonymity, which meant the trial of all these men would be opened up to the public and the media, and everyone would know who you were. Why did you choose to do that? Monsieur Pellicot was given the maximum jail sentence for what he did to you and for bringing men into your home and your daughter's home to rape you, 20 years in jail.

[00:13:58] Speaker 4: Will you ever see him again?

[00:14:18] Speaker 3: There has been an outpouring of support for you from people around the world. Let's talk more about those people, particularly women, who began to wait for you each day at the court and formed a guard of honour as you walked into the building and then applauded you as you left the building. How did that make you feel? You wrote that the crowd saved you.

[00:15:17] Speaker 4: Madame Pellicot, we wanted to show you these women who we spoke to from across France who wanted to give you this message.

[00:15:58] Speaker 5: Thank you for everything you have done for women in France, for justice to move forward and for women all over the world. She has done something very important. She has opened the court room to the whole world to be a witness to the horror of her story.

[00:16:16] Speaker 6: Thank you for having so much courage. Thank you to the new generation for raising their eyes closed. It allowed us to speak to our loved ones and to our families. Thank you for this fight, on behalf of all the girls, mine by the way.

[00:16:38] Speaker 7: Merci beaucoup pour tout ce combat et pour tout ce que ça va déclencher plus tard.

[00:16:51] Speaker 8: C'est très fort, vraiment.

[00:17:00] Speaker 3: And hearing their voices, seeing their faces makes you emotional.

[00:17:05] Speaker 4: Oui, ça me touche énormément parce que c'est les visages que j'ai rencontrés pendant le procès. Je les ai vus collés, j'ai vu leur collage, j'ai vu des banderoles où il y avait marqué Gisèle. Un viol est un viol. Elles ont été vraiment exceptionnelles.

[00:17:20] Speaker 3: And Madame Pellicot, if I may, I feel like you are one of the strongest women I have ever met. There is a life force in you. Where does that strength come from?

[00:17:31] Speaker 4: Je pense que c'est dans mon ADN, je suis née comme ça. Parce que les drames, j'en ai connu très jeune à travers ma grand-mère, à travers ma mère. Et j'ai toujours vu ces femmes souriantes malgré les épreuves qu'elles aient pu traverser. Donc je pense que ça m'a été transmis dès mon plus jeune âge. Et je me suis toujours construite comme ça. C'est-à-dire toujours rester debout et dire.

[00:17:52] Speaker 3: I know that you received a personal letter from Her Majesty the Queen, Queen Camilla. And both she and you have given us permission to share the words with our audience. I'm going to read the words if that's okay with you. Dear Madame Pellicot, having followed the trial for the past 15 weeks, I very much wanted to write to express my heartfelt admiration for the courage, grace and dignity with which you have faced the horrific crimes committed against you. You have inspired women across the globe, and in so doing, you have created a powerful legacy that will change the narrative around shame forever. Thank you for all that you have done. You are much in my thoughts and prayers. And I do hope you will now be able to rest and recover from this devastating ordeal. Camilla R. What did it mean to you to receive that letter?

[00:18:54] Speaker 4: J'étais surprise parce que c'est vrai que ma parole a touché le monde entier, mais je ne m'attendais pas du tout à recevoir une lettre de la Cour d'Angleterre. Et ça, ça m'a émue, bouleversée, et j'étais aussi très honorée de voir qu'elle avait pris conscience de ce qui m'était arrivé. Et ça aussi, ça m'a bouleversée. Vraiment.

[00:19:16] Speaker 3: You say you have found love again. Some people may be surprised by that.

[00:19:21] Speaker 4: J'ai toujours été tournée vers les autres, vers l'avenir, et je ne pensais pas du tout tomber amoureuse, ni même en avoir envie. Mais la vie a mis sur mon chemin un homme qui a les mêmes repères, les mêmes valeurs, et qui lui aussi a eu beaucoup d'épreuves dans sa vie. Et on a cette chance-là, on est tombé amoureux comme deux adolescents, alors qu'on ne s'y attendait pas du tout. Donc voyez comme quoi la vie, elle vous réserve toujours des très, très belles surprises. Ça nous a mis beaucoup de couleurs dans notre vie aussi.

[00:19:48] Speaker 1: Again, as Laura reminded us at the top of our podcast, on bbc.co.uk forward slash action line is material that might be useful to people who listen to that and think how can I react if I'm alone listening in my earbuds? What do I do now? But in my office, Vic, where I work, one of the youngest women I work with, reading all of your material that you've given us today with Giselle, that is exactly the bit she wanted to talk to me about, that she has found love again.

[00:20:22] Speaker 3: And I met her new partner. He's a widower called Jean-Luc. He was there through the interview, watching discreetly by the side, and they are in love. I mean, she says we fell in love like teenagers. I could see the kindness between them. I could see a sparkle between them. I had some really good chats with him because they both love dogs. Madame Pellico had a bulldog called Lancombe, who sadly died in December. But when she met Jean-Luc, he also has a bulldog called Zoe. I was telling them about my cocker spaniels. And he is a lovely man. And, you know, he neither expected to fall in love again at their age. And they have. And they're happy.

[00:21:14] Speaker 2: And that was a joy to witness. That someone's found happiness after such horror in their own life. What about the rest of the family, though, Victoria? Because we know, as Paddy's already mentioned, there is a suggestion that there were crimes against his daughter. And it has been incredibly hard, we've read, for Giselle and her daughter Caroline to move forward after what happened. What did you get a sense of their family relationships being like now?

[00:21:37] Speaker 3: Well, she was absolutely clear that her children, her three grown up children, finding out that their father had done this to their mother, decimated them all. They were devastated. They threw out belongings from their childhood, from the family home. They ripped up photographs. They wanted to erase their father from their lives. Giselle Pellico did not want to erase the 50 years she had spent with her husband, because, as she said, if I did that, it would be like I was dead for 50 years. But she absolutely understood her children's reaction. Now, on Dominique Pellico's laptop, there were two photographs of Caroline, the middle daughter, asleep in her underwear in her bedroom. And Caroline is convinced that her father abused her. Pellico, for what it's worth, said he hasn't. Madam Pellico herself does not know. And that has put an immense strain on mother and daughter relationship. In the court case, Caroline said she felt like the forgotten victim. However, Giselle Pellico told me that they are healing. That's the word she used. They are healing. They are taking it step by step as they look towards the future.

[00:22:54] Speaker 1: It takes me to the very heart of the vocabulary we use, victim, because she's showing such agency. She has turned the shame round. She is choosing the light, to use your words. She has found love again. She is even open to the idea of meeting him to find out in prison what he's done. What is the lesson? By bringing this news to the world, there's something about the strength of a person. There's something about choosing agency, Vic. And I know both you and Laura have brought interviews with remarkable people. And we're always trying to think, well, what can I do with this information? Have you been in some way changed by meeting her? Did you feel a power of humanity from her?

[00:23:41] Speaker 3: I did. I really did. I mean, what she said was, you know, you never know how much strength you have inside you when you are facing the most challenging of circumstances. She says, you know, she's a normal French woman. She, you know, she worked for EDF. She was a mom. She's a grandma. She was normal. And she found these reserves, this pool of strength in order to help her get through that. And she said, you know, we've probably all got that in us. We just don't realize it. And, you know, none of us will be tested, let's hope, in the way she has been. And she also, this decision, this positive decision she has made not to be consumed by hatred and anger, is her taking control over this situation so that she can find happiness again.

[00:24:43] Speaker 2: I think it's a really interesting illustration of why there's often a debate when you talk about these issues, about whether or not people who've suffered at the hands of terrible abusers, sometimes want to be called survivors rather than victims. And there is what can be a very heated debate, actually, about which terminology to use. But what you've told us about your conversation with Giselle Pellico, she is someone who has chosen to walk towards the light. She is someone who is not just surviving, but has found happiness again. And I think it's a really good illustration of why that's often a conversation that's sort of live and well. And sometimes people who've had these terrible things say, don't call me a victim. Someone did a terrible thing to me, but I choose to go forward with my life. I wonder if it does Giselle Pellico, does she, what would she say she is? Or maybe she'd just say, I am Madame Pellico, and here's my story. But does she describe herself in any in either of those terms?

[00:25:40] Speaker 3: She, in her book, she writes, she does not want to be pitied. She loved the support that she has received and continues to receive. She absolutely is so grateful for that. But she said to me, strength is in my DNA. I am a survivor. And that is definitely, definitely what she is.

[00:26:02] Speaker 1: She lost her mum when she was nine, I read. And she had a very powerful grandmother, and she's paying tribute to the strong women in her life. And that's why I think, yeah, I mean, I suppose I feel very glad in a way to say that I don't pity her, actually. And so I'm glad when you say that she doesn't want me to, I don't, I feel absolutely inspired by what you brought us as a message. And I suppose that's why she's speaking.

[00:26:32] Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. She wants, she wants to get the message through to people that there is always hope. And that, yeah, you know, if she can do it, we can too.

[00:26:46] Speaker 2: So Vic, where can people watch this full interview? We've played a chunk of it on the podcast here for your listening. But where can people watch the full version of the interview?

[00:26:57] Speaker 3: It's on iPlayer right now. It's called Giselle Pellicot, The Newsnight Interview. And it's on BBC Two at 10 o'clock tomorrow night, Sunday, the 15th of February. I am going to actually urge people to watch it. And this is the reason why. Obviously, for newscast and for Radio 4 and 5 Live and so on, because it's radio, audio, we have used a translator to translate her words into English. When you watch the programme, she speaks in French. So they are her words. And we use subtitles. And I do feel that is really important.

[00:27:31] Speaker 2: That's interesting, because the medium, well, sometimes people say the medium is the message, but it is very different to listen to things and watch things and subtitles or simultaneous translation when you have somebody giving the words, giving their own accurate translation, but in a different voice, that is a different experience. And of course, also those visual cues, how she reacts to your questions, her facial expressions, all of those things. And I can't wait to watch it in full in that way.

[00:27:55] Speaker 1: It raises so many questions that link the news together, because it's an exceptional case. But guess what? Somewhere in there is the internet. Somewhere in there is porn. Somewhere in there is men talking together about what they're going to do to women. And some of those issues crop up in your careers, Laura and Vic. The testimonies and the interviews you bring, both of you, you're known for this. It's just that there are commonalities there. And I wonder if when we'll come back to this, Vic, Laura, perhaps we'll come back to some of these issues in the future.

[00:28:30] Speaker 3: We will definitely come back to these issues. It wasn't just pornography that Dominique Pellicot was accessing on the internet. It was extreme pornography. It was illegal pornography. And it is one of the issues of our times. And we know that, you know, anyone listening now who's got children, we know that they have access on their smartphones to some really horrific stuff. It's a huge, huge issue. As you know, Laura, from all the interviews you do on your program, this is a live issue for parents around the world when it comes to their kids and social media. And I don't know how long it's going to be before we can stop this access.

[00:29:13] Speaker 2: Vic, thank you so much for speaking to us today. It's been really interesting to hear not just a section of the interview, but also about how you went about it and what it was like for you to be in the room and giving us more of an illustration of that experience of meeting that extraordinary woman. So thanks so much for being with us today.

[00:29:27] Speaker 3: Thank you both. Thank you.

[00:29:29] Speaker 2: So that really will be worth a watch. It is on iPlayer now and the full version is on BBC Two at 10 o'clock tomorrow night. And a reminder, there is lots of help and support out there for people who are just worried about these issues or, God forbid, have been a victim of any kind of abuse themselves. But there's lots of support out there on the BBC Action Line website. So that will be on BBC Two tomorrow, but you'll be on Radio 4 tomorrow morning and I'll be on BBC One tomorrow morning. What are you doing tomorrow, Paddy?

[00:29:56] Speaker 1: So we're wondering if there was a rush of blood to the head. We're speaking to a conservative who feels that the race to depose the Labour PM is something that got into the political class and the chattering class. They got a habit for it. Doesn't mean he's not going to be ditched in a few months, but just reflecting on that sort of canter towards the deposing of the PM.

[00:30:19] Speaker 2: Yes, interesting. Well, a few of my more wry sources, might I say, this week have somewhat enjoyed the suggestion that we've heard from some of Keir Starmer's backers that, ah, yes, this was all a media obsession. When, of course, the media is reporting what people tell them. However, there we are. It's an interesting debate nonetheless. Is it an unhealthy habit that we have reached for as a country, saying when things are wrong, like the big red chair on Graham Norton, ditch the PM, chuck him over the edge, rather than confront other deeper seated problems. And actually, it's an interesting debate about whether or not there is, too soon, people are reaching for the big giant red hammer.

[00:30:59] Speaker 1: Are you available as a guest, Bernie Charles, tomorrow morning? Because we would like that sort of, we would like it explained as well as that. And what have you got?

[00:31:06] Speaker 2: Should get Graham Norton on the chair, then he should decide.

[00:31:09] Speaker 1: What have you got on the telly?

[00:31:10] Speaker 2: We are speaking to Yvette Cooper, the Foreign Secretary, who is at the Munich Security Conference. Huge big gathering of big high haegens around the world. The Prime Minister's there President Zelensky is there today. Some of President Trump's representatives on earth, Secretary of State Marco Rubio is there for the US. So there's obviously a lot of focus on Ukraine, on the shifting power between on either sides of the Atlantic. And the Prime Minister making quite a blood curdling attack on some of his political opponents in his speech this morning. More or less reading between the lines, suggesting that if you vote for reform or the Greens, then you're soft on NATO and you're somehow advancing us towards a situation where the UK would not be safe. So that's quite a political accusation coming from Keir Starmer's lips. So we're talking about that. Yvette Cooper's opposite number, Priti Patel, the Conservative Shadow Foreign Secretary will be joining us too. And we have got an interview with Dr. Hilary Cass, who was the author of that landmark report into complicated and important issues around young people and kids and trans treatment for trans young people. So that will be very interesting. So don't miss that.

[00:32:23] Speaker 1: We're also doing the people who are switching from white collar to blue collar jobs.

[00:32:27] Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

[00:32:28] Speaker 1: Accountant who's giving it up to become a plumber. Not a bad shout. Well, I mean, I hope he starts his conversation actually. I'll bring comments back to you in the future.

[00:32:36] Speaker 2: Is he going to bring a spanner?

[00:32:38] Speaker 1: Or a plunger? I just hope it's a plunger. There's a TARDIS in the, there's a there's a Dalek in the reception.

[00:32:45] Speaker 2: As well as Graham Norton's red chair. Actually, I don't know what they were. If that's in broadcasting house, maybe I should go and sit in it or you can chuck me over the edge and we'll see what happens. Anyway, we'll see what happens tomorrow.

[00:32:53] Speaker 1: So we'll be back with the Sunday newscast. But thank you very much for listening today.

[00:32:57] Speaker 2: Thank you very much.