How Journey to Esquire Builds Future Legal Leaders (Full Transcript)

[00:00:01] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Stephanie.

[00:00:02] Speaker 2: And I'm Zach, and this is Episode 599 of the Lawyer's Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, I talk with Jocelyn Hardrick about her program, Journey to Esquire, which helps non-traditional law school students transition into legal work in, I guess, a more impactful way.

[00:00:23] Speaker 1: Well, it's still around the first of the year, Zach. I'm going to claim it.

[00:00:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in month one or two, something like that, yeah.

[00:00:33] Speaker 1: It's going fast. I'm like, wait, how is it almost already the end of January? But anyway, it is, which also means it's not too late. If you're feeling, I think sometimes we're like, oh, the start of the new year, it's goal-setting time, it's time for me to get my focus. I guess one of my messages to you today is don't feel bad if you haven't gotten to that. I was telling the team this morning. Oh, that's a good point. I cleaned my office over the weekend, and it felt so great to start today with a very clean desk and no pieces of paper. That's normally something I do around New Year's Day. Clearly, I'm a little late, but it still feels better late than never. Give ourselves some grace.

[00:01:17] Speaker 2: I think that's a good point because, yeah, we can kind of feel like, oh, well, I lost the momentum because I didn't quite get this done. I didn't get a goal, much less all my goals done or even created at the beginning because there's a lot of things that you sit down and I fall victim of kind of goal FOMO, you know, just so many things I want to do. And then a lot of times I'll just freeze and just be like, well, I ultimately don't really set any goals sometimes, or you want to set 150 goals. And when you're focusing on everything, you're not going to do anything, right? Right.

[00:01:58] Speaker 1: True. And it's almost like we're such perfectionists as lawyers. We kind of keep stuck sometimes in that perfection. I could hear you being like, but I need to have the right goal or the perfect goal or – Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

[00:02:13] Speaker 2: How do these all come together into one? Yeah.

[00:02:17] Speaker 1: Yeah. It totally resonates. And, you know, my pep talk to everyone who might be thinking, oh yeah, how do we do that? One of the things we did differently this year for our company, in the past, we may have fallen victim to setting five or seven or 10 company goals for the year, which is probably what you hear people do, like you need, you know, all these goals. And this year, we really got disciplined and we said, you know what, we're going to have three. We're going to have three primary focus areas for the entire company and everything should tie back to these three things. And if they don't, we're not going to focus on them this year.

[00:03:04] Speaker 2: Getting down to 10 is tough or seven is tough, but three, what – I'm not going to say why three, but like why that few? What's the purpose there? And what kind of drove, I guess, our leadership to say, let's whittle this down even more?

[00:03:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot. I mean, I will agree that it was not a simple process to get there. It's not like we just woke up and said, just three, but – Three is the magic number.

[00:03:34] Speaker 2: Three minutes.

[00:03:35] Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's like a lot of things. We put a lot of ideas on the board and we were – and you could see area – but then the hard thing is like, but where should we really focus? And so it's like these three overarching principles that we really got to that said, we need to fix these first. If we really focus on these things or maybe fix, you know, if we improve, if we unlock, if we leverage these things, then this really will impact other parts of our business. These three things are the next steps that we need to take. And we realized, so like, let's just focus on those and not try to fix 10 other things. I mean, maybe one could argue in the nature of the one big thing, different teams will get involved because that will cascade down. I mean, we're a little bit larger company now, so there'll be different team members who will connect their work to those three things. The other kind of key thing we really wanted, we wanted them to all be simple names. So just like our core values, you know, if you know our core values, like everybody on our company, if asked to spit out our core values, they could because they're easy, they're simple names to remember, and there's not too many of them. We wanted the same kind of thing with this. Like we think about our core values as the rules of the sandbox and how we're going to work and show up every day and do our work. We wanted that same kind of thing for the company focus. How do we have quick two words that are easy to remember for each focus that once we unveil them to the company, everybody can be like, okay, we're focused on this and I know it.

[00:05:20] Speaker 2: So yeah, so is there, I guess there's an aspect of being able to keep this top of mind, then, if you've got 10 things, you're not going to keep 10 goals top of mind, right?

[00:05:33] Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that that really probably was the driving factor is how do we stay super focused on these things?

[00:05:41] Speaker 2: So from a very practical standpoint, are these three things, and this may be a dumb question, but are these three things a decision that you made after you whittled down 10 or are they three things that are able to kind of like encompass the 10, you know?

[00:06:02] Speaker 1: I think it's the latter. So I worked with a firm once that also came up with three things for their year. And I think I have this right, but one of them was new leads coming in because they felt like that captured all their marketing efforts and business development efforts. So they could see, and it might've been new cases and not new leads, but which would have even encompassed then the sales process. So that would be focus number one. Focus number two for them, I'm pretty sure was some time aspect to their case. And I'm not going to get the exact right one, but they wanted to get so many cases to this stage by this time, because that showed that the operational machine of the litigation was working, that they were moving cases through their pipeline, not just the sales pipeline, but then like the litigation pipeline. And then focus number three for them, the way they captured it, they ended up going with like five-star Google reviews, but it could just as easily be a client survey score, NPS score, because for them that captured, is the team showing up great? Is the client having a good experience? Is the client more likely to send us referrals and be happy with our services? Because we can't always control the result, but we can control how we show up for our clients and how we interact with them. So if you really boil down the essence of what we're trying to do with our law firm to those three things, you could see how everything else flows from that.

[00:07:33] Speaker 2: Right, right. So it becomes more of a strategic decision than just a goal setting decision. I like that. Well, we have our State of the Union, where Yael will unveil those to the rest of the team coming up later this week. So I look forward to seeing those and putting them into my brain, because theoretically, they're going to be easier to remember.

[00:07:57] Speaker 1: That's the hope. So I hope this inspires you guys. If you're listening, I challenge you, could you come up with three primary goals or focus areas for the year instead of 10? And if you get stuck on it and you want to email me, happy to have you. Stephanie at Lawyerist.com. Happy to have a little chat with you about that, too.

[00:08:17] Speaker 2: Love that. Love that. Well, now here is my little chat with Jocelyn.

[00:08:36] Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Jocelyn. Jean-Louis Hardrick, and I am the Law School Pro. I assist the law students from admission to admission. So that's admission to law school all the way to admission to the bar exam. I'm a professor at Cooley Law School. I teach criminal law, criminal procedure, constitutional law. Really interesting topics to teach right now, by the way. And I am the founder of Journey to Esquire. We create lawyers who lead, mentor, and inspire one student at a time. We do that through curated conversations, meaningful mentorship, and personalized preparation, in addition to cash scholarships. And we have had seven classes of students. We've helped over 80 students, given out over $60,000. And we're a small but mighty nonprofit. And I'm excited to talk about all the different things that I do.

[00:09:22] Speaker 2: Wow. Jocelyn, thank you for being with me. That is a lot of stuff. I'm glad that you did the intro. It would have been a lot for me to keep going with, because you've got a lot of stuff going on. And it sounds like you've got a pretty good eye into that space of entering into law school, obviously in law school, but then also entering into the legal profession. So I wanted to talk, though, specifically about your Journey to Esquire program. This is the thing that had caught my eye and our eye. Could you tell me a little bit more about what that is? So you're a professor at Cooley Law. And separately, you've got this Journey to Esquire program that you do.

[00:10:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:10:12] Speaker 3: And it's interesting, because I started it while I was a law clerk at a federal courthouse in Tampa. I dealt a lot with the interns from the local law schools who would come work with the judges. And then word would spread. And people were like, this lady, Jocelyn, is the person to go to. And I just kept giving advice and talking to individuals. And I kept trying to get other lawyers to join me. But it was tough, because you want to help, but you don't know how. Someone suggested, well, why don't you turn it into a program? And then that way, people can kind of plug in as they're available. And I thought, that's a great idea. So I started Journey to Esquire in 2018. I'm still a law clerk, so I had to get my judge's permission and everything. But I'm like, I'm going to do this after hours and on the weekends. And I literally just cobbled a program together based on researching other programs throughout the nation and programs that I was in. And they're called pipeline programs. So when you're trying to show someone the path to go somewhere, you're creating that pipeline to make it easier and remove, like you said earlier, remove some of the friction. So these are some big friction points. I particularly worked with third year students when I started, because I found that law students, first of all, you remember law school. You're like, just ready to get out. You feel pretty beat up by then.

[00:11:37] Speaker 2: But I have no idea how I'm going to do that. But yes, I'm ready to get out. And then it's like, but what is it? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:47] Speaker 3: And do what, right? When I was in law school, I had a professor who sat me down and talked about judicial clerkships, for example. But I didn't know what it was. I had no lawyers in my family. He said it was prestigious. That was his big sell. And I'm thinking, well, I got bills to pay and prestige to take my bills, right?

[00:12:05] Speaker 2: You know what I'm doing. Yeah.

[00:12:08] Speaker 3: And so that was one of the things I talked to the students about. What is a judicial clerkship? Why is it so valuable? And what does it really mean for you long term? I also talked about going into big laws. In a big law firm, I didn't, again, didn't know anything about it. I just ended up having good grades. And people said, if you have good grades, law firms love you. So I go to the interviews and I got offers. But I didn't know what that was going to mean to like billable hours and book of business, all those things. And I also wanted to talk about leadership. What I found was a lot of non-traditional law students who go to law school, they kind of just feel lucky they got in like I did. And we are grateful. But we also don't realize the power and influence we can have just with that law degree. And so Journey to Esquire is about guiding students through a series of modules. So by the time they're done with it, they feel more confident about what they want to do with their law degree, their ability to get back to their community. And they're aware of even more options than when they came in of things they can do with their law degree.

[00:13:10] Speaker 2: And so who I've got a lot of a lot to unpack there. So I've got a lot of questions about this. So who is this for then? You know, you're saying I think most people who go into law school at least have some level of not knowing what's on the other side of the door. But from my experience, I'm a second generation attorney. From my experience, I likely have less anxiety about that. I likely had had more knowledge of what was on the other side of law school. So who is this program for then?

[00:13:44] Speaker 3: Primarily, we target first generation college students, some first generation law school. But we found if you're a first generation college student, you had to figure a lot of things out just to get into college. And so law school becomes this other step. Furthermore, first generation college students tend to not always know that they're going to go to law school. And so they tend to have a lot more debt and not realize how that's going to impact their ability to graduate and choose their career. And then non-traditional students, like you said, we support veterans. I've had a lot of veterans in our program. I've had a lot of second career individuals, people who had the dream of going to law school, but they got kids and they got married. And so now they're like, I think it's my time. So we've had a lot of people with children who are working full time in the program. We have one student who was a first generation high school graduate.

[00:14:38] Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:40] Speaker 3: Parents are from Puerto Rico.

[00:14:41] Speaker 2: First generation high school graduate, graduates college, graduates law school. Yeah. That's impressive.

[00:14:50] Speaker 3: Yeah. Now she's a prosecutor and she has her own family. But it doesn't just stop there. We're also asking students, listen, if you want to just become a lawyer and make a lot of money, good for you. If you want to become a lawyer and you just got this one track mind, that's cool too. But if you want to become a lawyer and you really want to become a leader in your community, we want to show you how to do that. And so through the interview process, we talk to the students about what is it that you really want to do with this title lawyer and how can we help you? And the best way I can describe it is we meet the students where they are, take their hand and ask them where they want to go. And if it's somewhere we can help them, then we join them on their journey to Aspire. So it allows us to really personalize the program to the student. But those are the primary focuses.

[00:15:39] Speaker 2: What are the paths or where are the end points that you're seeing and able to kind of help people get to? Because yeah, there are some places that have a little bit more influence or a little bit more ability to give back than others. If you open up your own firm, you do have an ability to give back and do have an ability to influence, but it takes a while. It does. And so you kind of have to know that going in, as opposed to potentially going to an established larger firm and being able to have a little bit of impact maybe right off the bat.

[00:16:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So one of our class of 29 graduates, Brielle, she was actually going to my old firm, which was funny. When I met her, I said, oh, I went to that firm. Let's chat. Then I said, by the way, I have this program. She said, I'll try it. Um, she was just ready to go to the firm and start her practice. But after talking to her about clerkship, she got really interested and she became a bankruptcy judge clerk. And, uh, she went into the bankruptcy practice. Now she's doing all kinds of corporate law and a big trend, like million dollar transactions. Well, she initially wanted to be a police officer. And so when she was thinking law school, she was thinking prosecutor or something like that.

[00:16:52] Speaker 2: Yeah, right. Yeah.

[00:16:52] Speaker 3: But we're able to open her eyes into other opportunities. And with a big firm, she's been able to be that she became the president of the board. She's been on other boards. She's been helped get sponsorships. And so those are kinds of things you get access to through a big law firm. And once you have a judicial clerkship behind you, people just trust you more. They're like a judge trusted you to do their work. It just gives you all this extra gravitas and credibility. Um, we had another young man who, um, was here in Tampa, uh, and he had a corporate job waiting for him at a, um, local, you know, um, business in Florida, but he was actually from Georgia. And I said, what do you really want to do? He said, you know, actually, I really want to go back home to Georgia and do some things there. And I'm like, have you considered a clerkship? If you get a clerkship with a judge there, that's a great way to get reintegrated into the Georgia legal community. He, um, rejected that corporate job. And I was like, are you sure went to work for a judge? And now he's at a big law firm in Georgia and joined himself and it's back home. And, um, so even that he had no idea that that was something that could be open to him.

[00:18:09] Speaker 2: Um, so he's, he's doing well now. So other than just kind of like not necessarily knowing that it's, that it's a potential option, what are some of the other things that are in the way for non-traditional students getting to these, these clerkships and, and some of these other places along that pipeline?

[00:18:26] Speaker 3: So one of the things they have to learn is how important writing is, you know, when I was thinking about law school and when most people think about lawyers, we, we don't think about lawyers as writers. We think of them as speakers. Yeah. We see them in court talking. We see them talking to clients, negotiate, but most of like, what, 60, 80% of what we do is in writing. And so getting students to understand that early has been really helpful to get them prepared for something like a clerkship.

[00:18:55] Speaker 2: That makes sense because anytime, if you're, you know, again, I, I'm second generation attorney. I think of my father, um, as somebody who wrote very well, um, always thought of him as somebody who wrote very well, obviously he spoke very well, but you know, and, and he was a, um, he was a public defender. And so like he, he was even in that role, uh, that you see on TV, you know? And so I, I would imagine that some people's only, or at least formative concept of what you can be as a lawyer is just TV images of the courtroom. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:19:33] Speaker 3: A lot of students I work with too, that's, that's what they, even after law school, they're thinking, well, prosecutor, defense attorney, insurance. Like they think those are the only three options. I'm like, have you thought about compliance? Have you thought about, um, uh, non-traditional JD jobs? Um, a lot of them run, run for office. I don't help them run for office, but I help them develop those leadership skills, the collaboration, the community building. That's really important to that. A lot, um, here in Tampa Bay and in Florida, I think we have like a hundred bar associations. Tampa Bay alone has probably 20. The students don't know that this is huge networks around them.

[00:20:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:20:11] Speaker 3: That they can plug right into, but you know, when you're in law school, you're in a little bit of a cocoon. And so I help them get out of that. Yes.

[00:20:18] Speaker 2: Yes. Okay. And just kind of expand what they're, what they're looking at, um, and see that the profession is pretty, pretty big. So, um, what are some of the other struggles on coming out of law school and getting to these places? Are we talking, you know, is journey to Esquire something that helps with bar prep? Is it, is it something that helps like when I think about what you're talking about here and you're talking about modules that people take. So we're, we're, we're thinking about, um, students while they're three L's are, are doing this type of thing. And is it, is it, yeah. Is it also helping them with bar prep? Is it also helping them with the, with the licensing portion as well?

[00:20:57] Speaker 3: Yes, we do. Initially we thought, you know, the soft skills was what they were missing. Um, so the models was talking about giving back to the community. How do you, um, interview? Well, making sure your resume, your LinkedIn, your social media presence, like, you know, these young people are all over social media and they don't realize everyone's going to Google them. So we've had to help them learn that. And then eventually we started to see people really struggle with the bar exam, especially as we went into COVID and after.

[00:21:25] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[00:21:25] Speaker 3: And so, um, the cash scholarships we provide is to help the friction of, um, having to work while studying for the bar. Cause that's one of the biggest indicators that you might not pass the first time if you have to work. Um, like I told you, a lot of them have children, so they still had childcare and they still had, you know, car notes and insurance and all these bills that their student loans weren't really covering. Um, and then what I also learned was a lot of students have the intellectual capacity to do this work and pass the bar, but not the emotional regulation. And so we've connected them to, um, therapists, meditation, um, coaches who help guide them with, you know, this really tough part of your law school journey, because we call in, you know, in law schools, we call the bar exam a sprint at the end of America. So students are just exhausted by the time they get there and they're not giving it their all the way they need to. So we definitely have seen a dip overall in bar passage. And so we've had to increase our support in that area.

[00:22:31] Speaker 2: And just to be clear, you're saying a dip in overall bar passage, you know, across the bar, not a dip in bar passage in this program. It's just a dip in bar passage. Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:42] Speaker 3: All over the nation. Yes, yes, yes. Cause there's been changes to the bar exam, um, and then COVID just created, um, you know, we have several graduates that went through most of their law school online. And so now they're in this in-person environment trying to take this test with hundreds of other people at the same time, and they don't know how to function right in that environment. So yeah. Yeah. And California had something going on. They've changed there. So all those changes are creating a lot of levels of friction for students. So that's, what's nice about being a small, but mighty nonprofit. We can adjust and adapt pretty quickly. Um, and we've had to do that right recently.

[00:23:21] Speaker 2: That's actually the thing that was in my, my head here is that, that because of, you know, I guess the, the size and it seems like the connection that the people that are running this nonprofit have to this, like you guys, it's not like there's three layers of, of distance from you to the people that are actually in this program. Um, did you, what did y'all see? And this is just an interesting thing for me. What did you see kind of during the COVID times that, that were different from what we, what we might have needed in like 2019? Cause you said we started in 2018, 2019, then we have COVID. Um, were you seeing other things that you, that you needed to help attorneys with or, or, uh, you know, I don't want to say baby attorneys, but, uh, uh, pre-attorneys, law school students, that's the word, law students, school students.

[00:24:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:24:12] Speaker 3: There was, uh, that epidemic of loneliness was really strong with students. One student in particular, Breon said, you know, I didn't realize how lonely I was until I would meet on Saturday mornings with you guys and realize I was looking forward to that so much to talking to you all really reflecting on what am I going to do as a lawyer? And they had so much more time on their hands. And so it allowed them to go deeper in the module. So our modules will hybrid to begin with. And they went completely on online during, um, COVID. And what's interesting is we were one of the first people using zoom, right? I had to tell people, you go to this website, you download it. Like what's zoom. Right. And the next thing you know, it was all over the place. And I'm like, I should have invested in some stock.

[00:24:56] Speaker 2: Oh man. Yeah.

[00:24:57] Speaker 3: Yeah. We were already adept to doing that. And students needed, um, a lot more emotional regulation than before working with students. Now I have law students who went through most of college online. They're really having to learn how to communicate in person, how to network, how to build community in person. I remember when we go to work, you go knock on someone's door, ask them a question. They'll go to the courthouse with you. Like they don't have those experiences anymore. Even how to dress has become a new thing. Surprisingly. Yeah. The yoga pants, you can't, you can't work. Right. Um, and so we've had to have like more direct conversations about what is appropriate dress.

[00:25:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, that is very, I like that. That's very funny because, you know, you say you can't wear yoga pants to work, um, for the listeners I'm in sweatpants. Um, I, I have a collared shirt on, but I, I meet with people, um, via zoom. And so I, I wear sweatpants a considerable amount to work, but I did have my, you know, going to court. I was in a suit going to, you know, when I had my office, I was in a suit and it's high and all that. So I could see where if you started like this, you know, and, and then going on, I'm not going to, I'm not going to put a belt on for, for this. It's just a meeting. It's a meeting with a client. Why would I put a tie on? Well, because you're a lawyer.

[00:26:21] Speaker 3: Yes. And I've had judges have to like, tell me that, like, what do we need to do to get these younger lawyers to dress appropriately? And I'm like, we have to educate them because we're taking it for granted. We really are.

[00:26:33] Speaker 2: I guess that's a good question. Are, are you, what kind of feedback, what kind of, of, uh, direction are you getting from the, the places that you're connecting, um, students to, you know, some of these judges, I imagine you're, you're connecting to some judges, you know, maybe even multiple times. Are you getting feedback on like, Hey, love this.

[00:26:51] Speaker 3: Um, yes, yes, absolutely. Um, judges have served as mentors. Some of the students have graduated and they're in court and the judges see them there. What I love is that so many of our alumni have come back and served as mentors. And now they're getting to do the thing someone else did for them. Um, one thing, one of our, um, mentors slash alums said was I was helping this student negotiate her pay salary. And I literally just went through this myself. If I was not there and coaching her through it, she would have lost out on $30,000 on her salary. They were low balling her that much. And she didn't know. And so she, she coached her through it. And this like a direct impact right then and there that now that's the kind of amazing things you get when you have meaningful mentorship, because there's people who are going through what you've been through as well. We had, um, justice Peggy Quinn's, who was a Florida Supreme court justice as one of the mentors. So that was nice. She actually went to the same law school as one of the students. And then I saw that student in New York at a pre-law conference. She was there paying it forward. And so that's what I love about the program, how quickly the students really come back and get back.

[00:28:02] Speaker 2: Well, you know, that's kind of what you're, what you're saying from the front end though, too, is that, you know, the, the part of the idea is to help these students get into a position where they can affect change, where they can affect positive change, um, in a bigger way. Yes. You know, um, yeah. So you, you meet with and talk with a lot of, a lot of three L's that are kind of getting out into the world or about to get out into the world. What is one thing that you wish all of them? Cause I, I imagine you kind of see a big deal of this. What is one thing that you wish all of them kind of knew going into, um, I guess bar prep or even looking at their, at the next phase of the pipeline.

[00:28:46] Speaker 3: That this part of the journey will be the longest part. It was, it is the part that they have the most control over and that they can really have a lot of fun if they decide to bring joy into everything that they do. That's definitely, that's what I wish I knew more of. Cause you know, the first year, you know, that learning curve is so steep the first couple of years. And so you feel like you're still in law school, but now I'm, you know, I was teaching just last night and I said, yeah, 20 years ago when I was in law school and that was wait. Yeah. 2006. That was 20 years.

[00:29:24] Speaker 1: Right.

[00:29:24] Speaker 3: And I was like, hold on. Um, so yeah, and I'm not done yet. Right. So the law schools, what, three years and then the first couple of years can be tough, but the other, you know, 15 years have been very fun and it's been what I make it. And it really can be, especially their jobs. Now we don't even know exist. And so if they keep an open mind, they can really write their own ticket and create a career of their dreams.

[00:29:50] Speaker 2: I like that. Cause yeah, I mean, I, I wouldn't have known that legal tech advisor, um, existed when I was, when I was getting out of law school, I think you're right. But again, I had, I'm second generation attorney. So I, I had, I got out and went working with my father and, and had somebody built in that would go to the courthouse with me, tell me how to dress. He would walk in and, and go, oh, we're, we have an off day today. When I would not be in a tie, I would come in five, five days late. And he's like, oh, we're, we're just, you know, we're off today to great. Did you bring the afternoon paper? Thank you. And that was his, he, he was a, it was a card. And so that, that was his way of, of mentoring me. And so you, you have the built in. So if people not, obviously not, everybody's going to be in Tampa. Um, if, what would you say to attorneys that are listening to this, that think, Ooh, I'd like to do something like that, but I don't have the time. Yeah. Or I don't want to jump in, you know, that far. What's, what's something that they could do? And I hesitate to say easily, but easily.

[00:31:00] Speaker 3: Yes. Um, if you go to join to esquire.com slash CLE, we have some CLEs there. If you're a Florida attorney, you can get credit. But if you're not, some of those CLEs are really designed to show lawyers. How to mentor new attorneys and law students. Um, I would say do the things that was done for me. Lawyers just would take me out to lunch and just chat and listen and say, Hey, what do you want to do? You know? And I'm like, Hey, I'm thinking of this. It's out. Let me connect you to people that I know that's really easy to do. Um, I would tell them to plug in with a program. Cause a lot of people try to reinvent the wheel and that's when they get over. Overwhelmed. And so for my program, when the mentors would sign up, I said, you only have to meet with them twice, once in the fall, once in the spring. And I trained, they have a mentor module where I train them on what they have to do as a mentee. And so I'm like, if the onus is on them to reach out to you. To, um, get a date on the calendar to ask you specific questions and to identify things they need help with. And so if you plug in with your end of court, your local bar association and things like that, it becomes a lot easier. And that way you can, as you're available, you do it. And when you're no longer available, you pull out like right now, I, you know, I have a three and a half year old, an 11 year old. My life is really busy. I tell people I'm not, I've had to pull away from some other things, but you know, the website is still there. We have a podcast as well. We have a YouTube channel. We have all these resources. And so really some, sometimes students just need someone to like connect with them and then connect them to something else. And something that small can make a big difference.

[00:32:36] Speaker 2: I like that. Well, before we go, um, how can people connect with you? Um, where, where is, where's your information? What's, what's the website and, and how can they connect with you if they'd like to?

[00:32:46] Speaker 3: So my personal website is jocelynhardrick.com. My first and last thing.com. Um, for journey to Esquire's journey to Esquire.com. I keep it real simple. And if you want to get on my calendar, for example, like if you're interested, if you are interested in starting your own version of journey to Esquire, which I'd love goes, one of my goals to make it like a little package that anyone can pick up and replicate. Um, I haven't done there yet, but I'm always open to talking to people. You go to meet with jocelyn.com. You can get on my calendar and I'd love to talk to you about it. Yeah. It's that easy.

[00:33:21] Speaker 2: I, it is, even though it's that easy, we'll still drop all of those links and into the show notes.

[00:33:28] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:33:29] Speaker 5: Cause yeah.

[00:33:29] Speaker 2: And I'd love to chat with people. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Jocelyn, I really appreciate your time and I appreciate you, uh, explaining all this and sharing, sharing your journey and, and your knowledge with, with our listeners. Thank you.

[00:33:42] Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I was, um, uh, excited when Sam reached out and he's my, you know, fellow classmate and he does the legal tech too. I'm still trying to figure out what he does. I think he's doing it well.

[00:33:55] Speaker 2: And yeah, for everybody out there, we're talking about Sam Harden. Uh, one of, one of my coworkers. Um, and yeah, he is, he is very well plugged into legal tech. Um, so follow him if you want to know, um, some, some good legal tech insights. So, yeah. Well, Jocelyn, again, thank you so much.

[00:34:15] Speaker 3: So I appreciate it. Okay. Well, thank you. I was saying, um, yeah, he came and spoken and does some stuff on AI and just fun fact, he's hardened and I'm hard Rick. So we were right next to each other during graduation and that's our claim to faint.

[00:34:30] Speaker 2: I love it. It is, it is fun. How in law school you, you, there are so many little, um, coincidences or, or moments that, that connect you to somebody. Um, and just to kind of like bring this around, that's kind of what, what Journey to Esquire is about is, uh, is about creating those, you know, intentionally creating those moments to connect people to, to somebody that they'll remember the rest of their career and the rest of their life.

[00:34:54] Speaker 3: That's exactly it, Zach. Thank you for that.

[00:34:56] Speaker 2: Well, thanks, Jocelyn. I really appreciate it.

[00:34:58] Speaker 3: Thank you. Bye.