Leading Law Firms Forward in an AI-Driven Era (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Hey y'all, I'm Zach.

[00:00:03] Speaker 2: And I'm Stephanie. And this is the Lawyerist Podcast. One of the many ways we help you build healthier firms and gosh, just all around better lives.

[00:00:14] Speaker 1: Better businesses, better lives, all that. All the things.

[00:00:18] Speaker 2: Healthy, healthy, healthy.

[00:00:19] Speaker 1: All the things today.

[00:00:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. Today's show is brought to you by our friends at Posh. And so hang out because Zach's going to talk to them in a few minutes.

[00:00:27] Speaker 1: Oh yeah. He's going to talk to them about virtual reception stuff. But before that, you are going to talk with Debbie. This is our fourth in a series of four talking about the BNX Level Leader that you and Debbie wrote. I love this thing. Yeah. You're holding it up there. You can find it on BNXLevelLeader.com. You can find it on Amazon. This thing is, I read a lot of leadership and business books as you do too. You read more than I do, but we read a lot for this. And this is a really good book. I liked this one. Yeah. I know I'm biased. I know. But I mean, sometimes when you're biased, it's still like, yeah, I'm biased, but I'm still right.

[00:01:06] Speaker 2: No, I really appreciate that. We've been getting lots of messages from folks and comments and text messages and emails from people saying, I'm in the first chapter and oh my gosh, it's speaking to me. Somebody told me that they had four pages of notes on the first part. And I was like, what? That's crazy. But I appreciate that. Thank you, Zach. Longtime listeners will remember Aaron Street, who also used to be on the show. And he just told me this week, he was like, it's really good. And I was like, thank you, because some compliments land a little differently. And that one did, because he's a tough cookie to crack, you know, like he's a tough nut to crack. You got what I mean, people.

[00:01:47] Speaker 1: Aaron is straightforward. Aaron is, he just, I love that about him. He is straightforward and he has influenced me in working with him to be more straightforward. I'm not as much, but that is a really good one. That is absolutely a really good one. Speaking of something, though, that Aaron had a hand in years ago, we have revamped slightly the small firm scorecard. And the small firm scorecard is one of our ways of kind of helping people determine where their law firm kind of lives, where it lands, how healthy it is, really. It's kind of the guts of what we do. But you went in and really, really went through this with a fine tooth comb and revamped it and made it into something that fits into our healthy system. It's 20 questions, right? It takes about 15 minutes probably now to take. But we've also made it where you can see your historical data at this point. And I think that was something that you've been asking me to do for years. Maybe. Yeah.

[00:03:00] Speaker 2: Good job, Zach.

[00:03:01] Speaker 1: You finally got to it. Finally got to it. Well, so AI came along and then we did that. Tell me about the changes that you did, because I think that people that have listened to us have either done it, taken it, or thought about it, or looked at it. It's on our website.

[00:03:23] Speaker 2: I think the biggest change we made, obviously we shortened it. We really tried to tighten up the questions because it was a little long. I think it used to be 50 questions and now we got it down to 20. Is that right? Yeah, it's 20.

[00:03:34] Speaker 1: It's 20.

[00:03:35] Speaker 2: Okay. You know, the other big thing we did, which I think will be helpful for people, in the early days, it was like, grade yourself on a scale of one to 10 on this given part of your business.

[00:03:47] Speaker 1: Right.

[00:03:48] Speaker 2: And people struggled because you're like, well, what's an eight and what's a seven? What's a three? And then also they would come back and retake it and they would say, well, I graded myself harder this time because now my internal metric has changed as to what I think a 10 is or a three is or whatever it was.

[00:04:07] Speaker 1: Right.

[00:04:08] Speaker 2: Yeah. So that also makes the data hard because what do you do with that? So one of the things we did is instead of just giving you the open option of grading yourself on a scale of one to 10, we give you the options of one through five. But we actually named, we said, this is what a one looks like to us, at least. And this is what a three looks like and a five and a four and a two. So now I think you get better results because it's more meaningful of not just a random guess. You can say, okay, this is actually where I am and these are the three things I would need to do to move from a two to a four.

[00:04:46] Speaker 1: Well, it's also less about failure. It's less about scoring yourself and saying, my firm doesn't stack up. It's more about where are you? That's the thing that I noticed. Like, where are you? It doesn't, I don't want to say it doesn't matter, but like figure out where you are and then you can make some informed decisions as opposed to, well, my firm is failing. Well, okay. You know, that's one of the things I really love about it is that it's, we went away with the letter grades and it's now.

[00:05:15] Speaker 2: And that was always, that was always the intent of just being able to, to grade yourself. But people, lawyers, they take grades seriously. I know that shocks you, but people would, would email me and say, I got, you gave me a C or D and I'd be like, oh, I didn't give you anything because again, there was no metrics to say, like you gave yourself.

[00:05:36] Speaker 1: You can give yourself a 10 on everything if you want, oh yeah.

[00:05:40] Speaker 2: But it was, it's designed to be a tool. We ask people like, take it, don't just take it once, take it over time. You don't necessarily need to take it every quarter, but maybe even twice a year. So you can, and now that Zach has finally, you know, got it set up, right? Yeah, Zach, you'll be able to then track that progress and see where you're, where you are making some improvements or where you want to help that use that. Where should you focus next? It's a great tool.

[00:06:07] Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I like it again, bias again, right? But you can go to lawyers.com slash scorecard. We'll obviously put that in the, in the show notes as well. But now here is Stephanie's conversation. The last in our series of four, um, about being a next level leader. Hey y'all, it's Zach, the legal tech advisor here at Lawyerist. And today I have Nate Stallings with me from Posh Virtual Receptionist, and we are talking, as you guessed it, artificial intelligence, Nate, thanks for being with me today. Hey Zach, thanks for having me again. So when I say artificial intelligence and virtual receptionists, um, people don't necessarily know what that means, or they think that we're talking about artificial intelligence, a bot answering my calls. That's not, you guys have, have a different approach to AI usage in the virtual receptionist platform that is Posh, right?

[00:07:23] Speaker 3: Yeah, so we've got a couple of different flavors, but the one that we like to highlight the most is one that is enhancing our humans. We don't necessarily think that everybody wants to have an AI bot completely replace their virtual receptionist desk, right? We don't think that that's what most clients want, but there are probably some out there that do. But we're looking at it from a perspective of trying to enhance our agents and provide, you know, that, that extra ability to recall information quicker, right? To seem like they work there at your front desk, you know, and aren't sitting there looking for notes or trying to understand, you know, where do I find this information to provide back to the caller in real time?

[00:07:59] Speaker 1: Gotcha. Well, and so we're, we're kind of talking about the, that place where AI and automation start to kind of get a little confusing, um, about each other.

[00:08:08] Speaker 3: Yeah. So let's think about it this way, right? AI versus automation. AI is simulating thinking versus automation is following a set of rules or a macro or a process that you've set up. So then you kind of got to consider, well, what should I do or what should a person do? And it's an evolving landscape and every firm has got to make a decision that's best fit for them. Uh, but when it comes to, you know, automation, a simple way to think about it is the simple time versus cognitive load perspective. So does it take a lot of time, but doesn't require a lot of thinking. And if that's the case, then you should automate it. But if it takes a lot of thinking, well, that's probably something where you want to be involved

[00:08:46] Speaker 1: in. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. And so the AI that is being worked into y'all's platform though, like you said, is, is kind of, um, enhancing, I guess the, the ability of the associates to kind of go and get information.

[00:09:03] Speaker 3: Yeah. So, uh, it's something that we can turn on, right? It's not on by default, um, but where we're allowed, it's providing a hundred percent verbatim transcript at the call time. So it's not something that's happening after the call it's happening in real time. And then when we're able to provide more information about the firm to our receptionists, they're able to go through this AI process and have it recall information to provide them answers to questions that are being asked right then. So, you know, if they're asking, Hey, what type of cases do you handle? And we have a large list of what we do or don't handle, we can provide that immediately without having to read down a list. And so the way we built it, it's actually providing a scripting for them to read it out. Do they have to follow it verbatim? No. They can't kind of come up with them right away.

[00:09:50] Speaker 1: And so it's, it's kind of enhancing what they know about your firm. It is, it is, uh, um, instead of, well, it's not the, what I think about with the AI automation of like, it is creating a set path that my clients go into and they come in and it's all it's really doing is taking out the press one F, you know, and, and we're going to a non-human we're, we're talking about somebody calls in and they say, I'm doing, I'm doing a simple example is what kind of law do you guys do to help practice? And that is theoretically going to get transcribed, kind of sent out to, if it's turned on, sent out to this, this AI packaging and, and fed back to the virtual receptionist who can say, this is the type of law that, that, that we practice. And so now instead of sounding less human, this person sounds actually even more human and knowledgeable. And, and so we're enhancing the human aspect as opposed to taking the human aspect out of it.

[00:10:52] Speaker 3: Absolutely. And it also helps if, if a question is asked in kind of a weird way that maybe the human is a little bit unsure of having that response, come back to them, helps them sound more professional and polished and being able to kind of give off the correct persona that we're looking for with our receptionist, as far as the firms are concerned, right. Going back to providing great customer experience, um, that, that's kind of what we're looking for.

[00:11:16] Speaker 1: Yeah. And so in this scenario though, um, the more information that, that somebody can provide about their, about their firm, the better off they're going to be.

[00:11:25] Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. The more we can get, and we've got kind of an intake form that we ask a lot of different questions that help kind of give some, I guess, starting points for, for attorneys, um, for different firms to be able to provide that information that way they don't have to come up with it on their own because a lot of times these are questions that they know the answers to, but they don't think about if you were to say, Hey, tell me everything about your firm and what you do. Um, so we've got these intake forms that help, you know, kind of give them a little bit of a jumpstart.

[00:11:51] Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. So that, that helps my, my virtual receptionist give a little bit more context around who we are and things like that. What else are, are y'all using the AI for inside that platform?

[00:12:03] Speaker 3: Sure. So the AI is used for sentiment analysis. That's a big part. Um, we're starting to use it for QA, uh, when we're allowed to. So helping, uh, get through more quality assurance calls and try to analyze things where people might be struggling, where we can perform better. Um, and then also we do have just the AI voice. If someone was interested in using, uh, the AI voice in tandem with an agent. Um, and so how we've built that out is essentially, uh, the age old issue when you call an airline and you've given all your information to whatever IVR platform, then you get to an agent and now you have to repeat all that. Well, we've solved that. So our AI, any information that's going to gather from the caller, the receptionist has it on their screen when they answer the call. And so they can go into it. Maybe they verify just the name and the phone number, but they can go right into the rest of the call and they already know what the person's calling about, what they might be upset about or if they're trying to schedule and things like that. So we've solved that problem and it's really a huge frustration for a lot of people when they're dealing with those types of, of IVR or bot type, you know, things.

[00:13:04] Speaker 1: Yeah. How much, talk to me about how much control I as the attorney have over that. Because like I can, I can envision a scenario where I don't want to give it so much control that I'm getting case facts, but I could totally say, Hey, what are you calling about? Are you a new client? You know, are you, are you a new client? What type of law, you know, things like that. How much control do I have over that, that all of the control.

[00:13:27] Speaker 3: So the horror story is out there of AI going on, on, you know, tangents and telling all sorts of information or providing advice. The way that ours is built is basically trying to minimize any of those risks. It's only going to provide information that we've given it. Right. So it's going to, it can go down a call flow. It can kind of decide, okay, you're a new client, your existing client, we handle this case type. You know, you're in our jurisdiction, it can handle all that stuff. But it's not going to say, well, you should do X, Y, and Z, or even worse, Hey, go call this other person instead because they handle it. And this firm doesn't. Right. So all the controls there, and really it's built to more mimic a receptionist and not try to provide advice or provide information that isn't provided to it. So it's kind of got a goal in mind. And then it's looking at a database that says, here's the information that we have. I can only use this information.

[00:14:21] Speaker 1: Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, how can people find out more about how posh is integrating artificial intelligence into their platform and their services?

[00:14:30] Speaker 3: Yeah. So there's an AI hub on our website that they'll be able to look at and get some more information there. But they can always start by just going to posh.com backslash lawyerist and contacting us there or 833 get posh. And one of our sales associates will be happy to kind of walk them through and provide a

[00:14:47] Speaker 1: demo. Love it. Love it. Well, Nate, thanks once again for being with me and talking virtual receptionist and this time AI.

[00:14:53] Speaker 3: Yeah. Wonderful.

[00:14:55] Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

[00:14:56] Speaker 2: All right. Welcome back, everybody, to my fourth conversation with Debbie about our four cornerstones of law firm leadership. Today we're tackling the fourth cornerstone, which is leading forward. And I think we alluded to this last week. This is one that the ideas in this cornerstone are often, you know, maybe forgotten or not prioritized, kind of left to the side. It's also some hard stuff that you have to do. But tell us, Debbie, about what we mean by leading forward.

[00:15:24] Speaker 4: I think it's often those these kinds of things are often on people's to do lists, but they just get pushed to the bottom. And I think that they fall in the quadrant of important, but they don't fall in the quadrant of urgent. Right. So that's why they they fall by the wayside. I also think that one of the reasons why we wrote this book and why we thought it was so important to have a book that was focused on leading in a law firm is because strategy is often hard in a law firm just because of rule by consensus. We have all of our partners who all air quotes have to be on the same page in order to do the next thing. So sometimes thinking about strategy and vision and direction and growth and innovation feel really, really heavy because consensus is hard. And for many of the law firm leaders that we work with, when we talk about this, they kind of like go, that sounds exhausting. Like I don't know if that's something that we really could accomplish here. And then they tell us stories of how this practice group is at odds with this practice group or what works for these people isn't going to work for those people. Or we have these two rainmakers that are anti whatever, pick something, it doesn't matter what. And if they're not going to be on board. So the politics of how the law firm runs, often get in the way of the leader being able to lead forward.

[00:16:54] Speaker 2: I would agree with all those things. And you know, some of our listeners are at smaller firms and maybe thinking, okay, cool. I don't have all those problems. But I'm going to give you another one that I think, I think this one actually hits every firm every size, no matter what right now. I know you guys are sick of hearing about it. Some of you are sick of hearing about it. But what's happening right now with AI and technology in our industry, and I just read an article this morning, and I mean, yes, we could spend the whole episode on this. And you've kind of said this, I'll let you set up like we're playing a different game. And we don't even know what game we're playing or what the pieces look like and where they're moving. But the article that I read this morning was a new report that came out that was talking about general counsel and in house counsel, how they're thinking about AI, how they're what they think the expect what their expectations are about how the pricing and billable our changes should be happening with the firms that they're hiring. And I think the author said, only 4% of firms based on who they surveyed with these GCs had actually proactively gone to their clients to talk about AI and how that could impact their work and how they charge for their work. So most firms 96% are just over here with their head in the sand saying, I hope the clients aren't thinking about AI, I hope I don't know how to have these conversations. I don't know what I should be doing with these tools. And so no matter what size firm you're in, this is impacting us right now. And it's really hard. It's really hard to be thinking about like, we know we need to be planning for it and and preparing for the future. And it and and we don't even know all the variables we should be thinking about.

[00:18:35] Speaker 4: For sure. You know, at Affinity, we have a call every Friday for an hour with, you know, eight or 10 or 12 people, our brightest minds who are really, you know, paying attention and thinking about AI. And we all can't keep up with it. How in the world would we expect one of our law firm clients who's, you know, day to day is six or eight or 10 or 12 hours focused on client work or running the firm to really be able to keep up with it. And our team of people are people who are technically inclined, right, like that. They gravitate towards this stuff. They're reading it at night and on the weekends, and they're they're really absorbing all of it. So we are playing a different game. I was I'm a big analogy person. So, you know, first it was like chess, like it's not checkers. In checkers, you can like wedge yourself in on one of those, you know, ends pieces and you can stay alive forever in that spot. Right. But that's not the case because people move in different ways. So I called it chess instead of checkers. And then someone challenged me a couple of weeks ago and said, it's actually 3D chess. It's not even regular chess. It's 3D chess. Every move you make, you have to think about all kinds of things that are not known to humans. Right. We might build something for a client today that is obsolete in four months because someone created a button that can do that same thing. So when when law firms, big or small, are starting to think about this AI shift, or even just thinking about their strategy for what the next 12 months looks like for them, it can be incredibly overwhelming. And so that means it requires protected time. You can't lead forward eight minutes in the morning on Monday, followed by nine minutes in the afternoon on Monday, skip Tuesday because it was too big. You've got to have protected, dedicated time to think about what strategy looks like going forward, recognizing that you're always dealing with some number of unknowns in the decisions that you make.

[00:20:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's super hard. And I love that protected time. And sometimes you need to look, you know, you use this phrase a lot that I like, you have to look up, you know, got to look beyond your desk, you got to look around the corners. Sometimes you might need information that you don't have. Like this is where I think as leaders, you need to know what's going on in the industry. If you're listening to this podcast, I'd say yay, because I think we are trying to help cover a lot of those things for you. Because to your point, too, there's just a lot of information coming at us right now. So how do you take all that in and then know what to pay attention to and what not. And I think this is where having a community also can be really important and where I love working with firms, and I know you do too, because we kind of get to come in as that outside perspective and say, actually, maybe think about these couple of things, or here's what we're seeing. And we can kind of help people take the first steps in that strategy.

[00:21:35] Speaker 4: For sure. And it's one of the things that's super valuable for anyone who's listening, who is a part of Lawyer's Lab or has been a part of LabCon, the conference that you guys put on, a group of like minded people coming together and talking about what's going on. You and I have both spent a lot of time with the American Bar Association, with the ABA Tech Show, another community and group of people that come together. Except that you can't go to every single one of those, because I could go on for days with the list of all the things, right? You can't go to every one of them. So how do you pick a couple of communities and get plugged into them and follow the news and follow what they're talking about and what they're saying? That's one of the things I love about Lawyerist, being a part of our bigger picture affinity is that for, especially for solo and small firms, you guys are on it and really trying to communicate in so many different ways, this podcast being one of them, how to just try to stay with the pack. We're not trying to figure out how to get the leading edge and bleeding edge. People are going to figure it out, but how do we stay with the pack and how do we safely and ethically make the recommendations to our clients about what leading forward looks

[00:22:47] Speaker 2: like? And that's one of the ways we can do that, too, that we do talk about in the book. Because one of the things we hear at law firms a lot, again, probably doesn't matter what size is, well, that won't work here because, or, but we've always done it this way, right? There's like some other phrases that are variations of that, things that you and I want to ban. And it's how do you shift the conversation to say, okay, and what if, what, what would it take? I think is actually the phrase that we like to use, you know, what would it take for fill in the blank? And how do we start training our leaders to ask some different questions to get different results?

[00:23:30] Speaker 4: Yeah. We see that a lot when we do strategic planning with firms. Every exercise that we do, we say, there are no constraints. None of you are the constraints. Your bank account is not the constraint. The bar association doesn't even have to be the constraint, like remove all of the things that make you think there's no way we could do this and just start getting your ideas on a piece of paper. Like let's really dream big. What would have to be true in order for us to do X, Y, or Z.

[00:24:03] Speaker 2: And people really struggle with change. And so we know this, we know our leaders are struggling and our teams struggle. You and I've seen this on a daily basis where people, you know, they like, they like the way it was and they don't want to change. So how do you start thinking about that? Because not only as the leader, you might have the big idea, but now you've got to get this group of people who really don't want to do whatever it is you're suggesting and you got to get them on board.

[00:24:34] Speaker 4: I think that is the hardest work that we do. And you know, there's no shortage of technology. No shortage in the number of tools that are available. And most firms don't even have a shortage of great ideas. It's execution and bringing people along. That is the biggest struggle. And it could be about anything. That's the other thing is, you know, we've talked a lot about understanding the implications of AI on the practice of law, but it can be about things that are even, it could be about your mentoring program. We need to mentor our young lawyers and, except we can't get our older lawyers to participate in mentoring. Okay, well then we have to pick, we have to define what a mentor is and figure out who wants to actually do that work. And then mentors get frustrated because they're like, when I was a young lawyer, I used to blog, you know, list off the things. We live in a different world now. And so it isn't just leading through change. It's opening up people's eyes to the fact that you can long for the good old days for as long as you would like. But if you don't act on what needs to happen next, as Drew used to say, you will be subject to the whims of the weather, right? Intentionality around where we're going next. We can all take a minute and we've done this. I don't know if you were with me, but we've done this at many strategic planning retreats where we talk about generational differences and why we need people to lean into change. I've said like, all right, I'm going to put a timer on. Everybody gets to complain for five minutes about all of this. And then when the timer goes off and we're done, we're done. We're going to start talking about solutions. Just staying stuck in the old way is the insanity definition, right? You're not going to get where you want to go. You can't have it both ways. You can't say, I long for the days when, and continue to travel down that road of attracting and retaining talent, attracting younger generations to not just come to work at your firm, but to stay at your firm, technology, AI adoption, working more efficiently, workflows, automation, all that. You don't get there by clinging on to what you wish was still true.

[00:26:58] Speaker 2: And I think, you know, just engaging in the work, just starting to just having a strategic plan, having a vision for what you want your firm to be and understanding where you want it to go. People don't realize, like one, it's super valuable work. I know we've talked about it on this show a whole bunch, and it's obviously the first thing we do when someone joins lab is like, we don't need perfect, but we need to know, are we headed over here or over there, somewhere in the middle? I think one of the things people don't realize is when you engage in that work and when you can say to somebody in a recruiting situation is kind of where I was thinking, hey, this is where we as a firm want to go. This is, these are the things we're thinking about. This is what we're seeing. If I was interviewing with your firm, I would be super excited. Like, hey, this, like this firm's getting it. And imagine engaging and being able to do the same thing with your clients, right? Here's where we're going as a firm. This is where we're investing in technology. This is what we want to be able to do for our clients. You've just garnered a lot more interest and respect in those A players and those A clients. They want to be with those firms. So again, I come back to like, if nothing else, like, well, you know, this work's important and you need to do it and it's going to, it's going to be hard work and you need protected time. But there's also a financial benefit for many, many, many reasons to really doing this work. This isn't just like, you know, cause I feel like this is the kind of works, Debbie, it's easy for people to push back on us. And they're always like, oh, you, you consultants, this is just consultant speak. How do we have to do this? We just want to go practice law and like, trust us this, this work compounds. Yeah.

[00:28:40] Speaker 4: I think that, um, you know, that Ted Lasso sign that says, you know, the believe Ted, the Ted Lasso sign in the locker room. I have used that image in several LinkedIn posts about the absolutely necessary work of creating believers in a law firm, believers that there is a different way to recruit people, believers that there is a different way to retain talent, believers who are all in on a different way to get your work done. Believers who think that the technology actually, everything has good and bad, but there's more good than there is bad, right? That concept of how do we as leaders bring people along and create the believers. You told me a story about a firm that you worked with where you guys spent like three days working with lawyers on use cases for AI. And then you had a partner meeting on the last day. And I think you said like a senior lawyer who, what, what was it? What would tell you? Tell it.

[00:29:44] Speaker 2: Cause it, yeah. Yeah. One of the senior lawyers was like, guys, this is, I'm so excited to use this, this AI. And I think people were just in shock that they were like the 84 year old guy is going to use AI or the CEO in another, I had, they gave me a lot of the older people. I had like a couple of people in their seventies. I mean, these folks aren't retiring. They may be, that's a whole nother different show, but, but they were like,

[00:30:08] Speaker 4: They came into the room being like, I don't really even know why I'm here. And then they left the room and you, and they were like, do you have a flag I can carry around with me because I'm now on your team. Like I, that's what happened in that room.

[00:30:22] Speaker 2: Yeah. Which is always fun for us. So that's the challenge for us as leaders. And look, I don't want to pretend that this is easy stuff. It's hard stuff, but necessary and fun dig in. You can do it. You know, we lay out and here, the other, the other thing I'm really proud about this book for is I think you and I were, we're so conscientious about the content and making it approachable. This isn't a book filled with a lot of big theories and concepts. I mean, those are in there too. Then we're just like, okay, you got the concept. Now what do you do? What are the next three steps or five steps or however many it is? Because that's what you and I both care about so much that we wanted to give you everybody like not just thoughts, but here are the action items.

[00:31:08] Speaker 4: Yeah. Agree. And also in this section, we talk a lot about influence because, you know, anymore we're everybody's a leader, whether it's, you're leading a conversation with a client or you're leading showing someone how to do something. And our influence often has a reach beyond what we even imagine. And so how do we build this culture of people who are thinking about what's next? And it starts with our leaders talking about how they are thinking about what's next. And that's, that's building our believers inside of our organization to be able to challenge the status quo or raise their hand when they have a mistake. That leading forward work is culture work too. And I think that you can make a huge impact in your firm if you start to move the needle

[00:32:04] Speaker 2: there. Well, with that, that kind of wraps up our fourth cornerstone. Our book is Be a Next Level Leader. It's available on Amazon, both the book and the workbook. And we would welcome anybody to go check it out. We also have a website, beanextlevelleader.com. Any kind of final parting thoughts or homework you want to assign as people take away this fourth cornerstone?

[00:32:29] Speaker 4: Just to say that one of the quotes that I have been putting on LinkedIn for over a year now is rainmakers built the last successful, the last era of successful law firms. And I really do believe that leaders will build the next one, that people who are showing up with intention around where they are and where they are going, that is what success looks like in the next era of successful law firms.

[00:32:59] Speaker 2: I love it. All right. Thanks, Debbie. It's been so fun doing this with you. Absolutely. Thank you.