McSweeney quits amid Mandelson ambassador row (Full Transcript)

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Now some breaking news here in the UK, in the world of politics, we're getting notification that number 10 has confirmed that Morgan McSweeney has resigned as the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff. There was a question mark over his position given that he was supportive of appointing Lord Mantleson as the UK ambassador to the United States. Number 10 now confirming that Morgan McSweeney has quit as Sir Keir Starmer's Chief of Staff. Well our political correspondent Billy Kenber is back with us and Billy just a second ago we were talking about his position, whether it was tenable, well it looks like that decision has now been made.

[00:00:46] Speaker 2: Indeed, we've got his resignation statement here. He says that the decision to appoint Peter Mandelson was wrong, that he's damaged the Labour Party, our country and trust in politics itself. He said that when asked, I advised the Prime Minister to make that appointment and I take full responsibility for that advice. He said in public life, responsibility must be owned when it matters most, not just when it's most convenient and he's decided that in the circumstances, the only honourable course is to step aside. He concludes in this statement, a rather lengthy statement too, with two further reflections. One that it was important to remember the women and girls whose lives were ruined by Jeffrey Epstein and whose voices went unheard for far too long. The second is that the due diligence and vetting process, which he says he didn't oversee, did need to be fundamentally overhauled, it was flawed and that that cannot simply be a gesture but a safeguard for the future. He says he remains fully supportive of the Prime Minister.

[00:01:45] Speaker 1: So the breaking news that Morgan McSweeney has resigned as Sir Keir Starmer's Chief of Staff. We'll go down through the timeline of who knew what when because that's really critical but I think it's really just worth you reminding us the significance of Morgan McSweeney because he really masterminded Sir Keir Starmer's path to Downing Street. He was critical to Sir Keir Starmer so this is a blow.

[00:02:10] Speaker 2: Absolutely. It is hugely significant. He is Keir Starmer's and has been Keir Starmer's closest aide. He was there when Keir Starmer became leader of the Labour Party in 2020. He had overseen the reshaping of the Labour Party that has taken place under Keir Starmer, the selection of candidates, the campaign, the successful general election campaign only 18 months ago which won that resounding majority and then followed him of course into government working at the heart of Number 10 since he came into power. A hugely significant figure in the Starmer project and in this Labour government and one who today has resigned.

[00:02:47] Speaker 1: And I guess the question now is, is that enough to get the pressure off Sir Keir Starmer because we've heard the strength of feeling of Labour MPs. Will it be enough potentially for him to carry on as leader?

[00:03:01] Speaker 2: Well historically we have seen Prime Minister's leaders have to sacrifice key aides and it rarely ends happily for the leader themselves. Clearly this morning Pat McFadden, one of Keir Starmer's close allies in the cabinet was asked on the Laura Koonsberg programme whether Morgan McSweeney should go. He said no, he saw no point in that, there was no point in McSweeney going if Keir Starmer was remaining as Prime Minister. They are integral to this political project, to the government, intertwined one and another. And that was clearly his position. There were others of course who were calling for Morgan McSweeney to go and that pressure had clearly been building particularly in the last 24 hours. David Blunkett speaking on the radio this morning said that he felt the Prime Minister was being poorly advised and that a new Chief of Staff was needed and other figures among Labour MPs who weren't outright calling for Starmer to go were pointing fingers at those around him, calling it a boys club in one instance.

[00:04:06] Speaker 1: And the issue here is that Morgan McSweeney was really supportive of Lord Mandelson's appointment as UK ambassador but at that stage we already knew that there was a relationship that had been going on for a while between Lord Mandelson and Geoffrey Epstein and that had been reported by the FT and also in the BBC that that relationship was known because JPMorgan was looking into it. Incredibly complicated this but it was known.

[00:04:44] Speaker 2: At its core this is a controversy and more than a controversy really about the Prime Minister, question marks about the Prime Minister's judgement and why did Peter Mandelson get appointed at a time when it was in the public domain that he had continued to have an involvement, a relationship with Geoffrey Epstein after his conviction for underage sex in 2008. There was a real moment in the last week in the Commons on Wednesday when the Prime Minister admitted at the third time of asking that he had been aware of that ongoing relationship but it was already out there, it was out there publicly for those who were paying attention and so the question really was why was the Prime Minister not more curious and was this a calculated risk that they took at the time that they thought Mandelson was an appointment that would work in a particular circumstance with a particular politics around the Trump administration and that this issue around his relationship with Geoffrey Epstein was a price worth paying. Now of course number 10 would say they absolutely didn't know the depth of the relationship with Geoffrey Epstein and between Geoffrey Epstein and Lord Mandelson and what's emerged in the last week I think has clearly and legitimately shocked those at the heart of government, those who've known Lord Mandelson for a long time, the revelations that he passed confidential, potentially confidential information, potentially market sensitive information while he was in government, while he was Business Secretary under Gordon Brown to Geoffrey Epstein, information that it would be potentially possible for someone to make money from, that has clearly caused huge anger and also the detail of how frequently they were talking, how often and often in a light hearted and jokey manner. We should say of course the police investigation remains ongoing and Lord Mandelson we understand maintains that he has not behaved criminally in his view.

[00:06:35] Speaker 1: And it's worth just on the appointment just reminding the audience that Sir Keir Starmer was actually, they wanted a political appointment, they realised the seriousness of the changing dynamic with the Trump administration so they wanted this to be a hard hitting political appointment but actually Sir Keir Starmer was keen on George Osborne, the former UK Conservative Chancellor rather than Lord Mandelson.

[00:07:00] Speaker 2: That's right, there were a number of names in the frame once the decision was made to make a political appointment. David Miliband was much talked about as well of course, former Labour MP and brother of Ed Miliband. So there were other options there. We've heard reports particularly in the last few days in light of what's now happened and the acknowledgement that this was a huge mistake, that there were members of the cabinet that were advising it against appointing Lord Mandelson, among them the former deputy leader Angela Rayner. So there were clearly voices with different views but ultimately the decision was made and ultimately the decision is signed off by the Prime Minister and so I think the key question now with Morgan McSweeney going is will this be enough to save the Prime Minister? This is clearly a moment of huge political crisis for the Prime Minister, huge threat to him staying in power, holding on to his job. That pressure, does it now go simply because his closest aide goes? We shall see but history suggests probably not.

[00:08:01] Speaker 1: This is a really fast moving development. Just to remind everybody potentially joining us on the BBC News Channel, Morgan McSweeney has resigned as Sir Keir Starmer's Chief of Staff. He's issued a full statement, a long statement which is available on our website but to abbreviate it, he says that the decision to appoint Lord Mandelson, Peter Mandelson, was wrong, that decision to appoint him as UK ambassador to the US. He says he leaves with pride in all we have achieved mixed with regret at the circumstances of my departure. But this is really fast moving because just this morning Pat McFadden was doing the rounds on the morning political shows. He told Laura Koonsberg that removing Morgan McSweeney would cost the UK's economy and Prime Minister rather, would cost the UK's economy and international reputation. So he was very much insisting that Sir Keir Starmer should stay. The question now is, with Morgan McSweeney leaving, is that feasible for the Prime Minister who's been arguably hugely wounded over all of this?

[00:09:19] Speaker 2: Well look, where we stand now is I think it's really where we've stood for a few days now. There are many Labour MPs I would say, potentially most Labour MPs who believe that it is not a question of if he can survive but how much longer and the question around the timing rather than whether he will survive. I think you could see this morning in Pat McFadden's interview how severe, the sense of gravity at how serious a situation this is. His acknowledgement of just how politically damaging the last week has been, his plea really to colleagues to say, as you say there, that he doesn't think it's a good idea to change leader, that he doesn't think the country wants another change in leader, another change in Prime Minister, a situation where Prime Ministers only last 18 months to two years. And he said as part of that that he didn't see any value in a change of staff around Prime Minister, that the Chief of Staff going wouldn't change things, wouldn't fix things and that in his view the Prime Minister should be given a chance to get on with the job in hand and in implementing his policies. Whether that is persuasive for other Labour MPs, well I think many had already made their minds up and it's unlikely that Morgan McSweeney leaving will change them.

[00:10:36] Speaker 1: And what is worth just reminding everybody is that when it comes to Morgan McSweeney quitting now, that's been confirmed, Number 10 issuing that statement and we've got that long statement from Morgan McSweeney himself, this is actually the second Chief of Staff that Starmer has lost because of course Sue Gray went previously.

[00:10:55] Speaker 2: That's right, so Sue Gray brought in from the Civil Service, very controversially, before Labour came into power with a remit to prepare the party for power and then dispensed with fairly swiftly after arriving, the suggestion being that the Prime Minister and those around him were not impressed with the preparations that she had made. And then Morgan McSweeney stepping up into the role, this as you say, another Chief of Staff lost from Downing Street and it really is extraordinary the speed of all of this. It is barely 18 months since Keir Starmer won the general election with a really huge majority and we are now in a position where he is fighting, make no mistake, fighting for his political survival with potentially days or weeks left to see that play out.

[00:11:48] Speaker 1: Well as we just work out when it comes to this breaking news, Morgan McSweeney indeed quitting as Keir Starmer's Chief of Staff, it's just fascinating, you say it's a fast developing situation, only this morning, only this morning Pat McFadden was talking to Laura saying that, to quote him, that the country changing Prime Minister every 18 months to two years had an economic cost, a confidence cost, an international reputation cost and now we are here a few hours later since that interview and we are still discussing the potential of Sir Keir Starmer losing his position despite Morgan McSweeney standing down.

[00:12:30] Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's hard to see an obvious way of the Prime Minister turning this around at this stage, I think that is really at the core of why so many MPs think this is a one way street, it's difficult to see what he could now do that would restore his authority really, restore the faith of the Parliamentary Labour Party in his judgement, in his political nous and in his ability to lead fundamentally and this is obviously very significant, the departure of such a close and senior aide, but can it change fundamentally the mood music around Downing Street and this Prime Minister, well we shall see in the days ahead.