How Law Firm Leaders Build Stronger, Accountable Teams (Full Transcript)

[00:00:01] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Stephanie.

[00:00:03] Speaker 2: And I'm Zach. And welcome to the Lawyer's Podcast, one of the many ways that we help lawyers build healthier firms, better businesses, and more sustainable lives. Today, Stephanie and Debbie continue their conversation on the Be a Next Level Leader book with the second in the foundations of leading people.

[00:00:22] Speaker 1: So Zach, one of the things that we have for lawyers to help them is the small firm scorecard. We like building tools and resources that really help lawyers. And we've talked about it before, but we keep giving it facelifts. And the latest one, I think you just updated it, not in substance, but made it even easier for people to do it on our website.

[00:00:47] Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is a tool that we've had around, oh man, this is probably one of the first tools that was built on the Lawyerist website as kind of like a, hey, get your shit in order. And it is a tool that helps you kind of assess where you are. And you and I have talked about this where it's not, you know, originally it was kind of a grading tool of like, did you get an A, did you get a D, something like that. But as we've played with this, as we've made it better and it's matured, it's really become more of just an assessment. Where are you? No grade, no like, oh, you suck at running your firm, no. Where are you?

[00:01:28] Speaker 1: And also it continues to change, right? The firm grows and evolves and what worked when you were three people won't work when you're seven and now you might need a new system for that. So it's something that you can kind of keep coming back to revisiting and retaking and seeing what's changing and where should your priorities and focus be based on where you are right now.

[00:01:50] Speaker 2: And so now we've actually made it to where you can take it and save it and take it multiple times. And I think that's phenomenal because it gives us, we've essentially put a time dimension into this. So you can see how your firm has moved through really being a healthy firm over time.

[00:02:12] Speaker 1: So if I take it now and then I take it again at the first of the year, I'll be able to see both and see what moved and what changed?

[00:02:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll have to connect with us. But yeah, you'll be able to see what's what's moved and what's changed. Especially our labsters can can easily see that. But if you've taken it multiple times, you'll be able to see from now, you know, you'll be able to see how it's how it's adjusted. And I think that's really important. I think that's a really cool addition that we've made to this. So you can go find it at lawyerist.com slash scorecard. And yeah, I think we've made it pretty easy to take now.

[00:02:47] Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like if you're listening, you should go take it, even if you've taken it before, because now you're going to be able to see the changes over time. So go and get a new baseline, even if you maybe you have a baseline from before, but now you get a new baseline so that we can really start helping you track where you are with your firm. I think that's an amazing thing to do.

[00:03:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's free. It's easy. 20 questions. 20 questions. Yeah. Lawyerist.com slash scorecard. I would love for everybody to go out and take it.

[00:03:17] Speaker 1: All right. Sounds good. So now let's check out my next conversation with Debbie. All right. Hey, everybody. I'm back with Debbie Foster, and this is the second of a series of four episodes where we're talking about the four cornerstones of law firm leadership, which is the subtitle of our new book, Be a Next Level Leader. And so the second cornerstone, last time we talked about leading self and how we have to show up, we bring the weather, and we really set the tone for the whole team. And now we're moving into leading people. And there's a lot of meat here because our firms are made up of people. They are our biggest assets, right? That's what the law firm really has to bring is our people. And so, Debbie, when you think about leading people, and there's a lot to unpack in this one, but what do you tell people about to get started on leading people?

[00:04:26] Speaker 3: So the first thing that I'll say is that there are often very clear lines when you think about leading people. So if you are a leader in a law firm, you probably have some people that you actually lead that you are their boss, we'll use that word. And then there are other people that report to multiple people. That's one of the structural things in a law firm, right? All of the legal assistants might report to you, but the legal assistant thinks that their boss is the lawyer that they work for, right? And so they have this little mixed authority that comes with their role because of the kind of work that they do. It's a relationship business. People are your most important asset. And how we think about people really being successful in our firms is often connected back to this second cornerstone. How do we as a firm lead people? You can be a great people leader. If other people in your firm who are influencing the people that work there are not great people leaders, you're working double duty, right? And so some of this here is how do we think about from a law firm perspective, what is important to us when it comes to leading people? In the book, we talk about four things. We talk about trust, we talk about development, we talk about communication, and perhaps the hardest one, holding standards. That's really what leading people is about if we were to boil it down to four things.

[00:05:59] Speaker 1: This is one of those areas too where I think it was just sort of expected that we'd figure it out. And we talk about this. I mean, the whole concept of the book is around that idea, but this one especially, no one ever sat down to me. I remember joining a law firm out of law school and my first person that I was supposed to manage was my legal assistant, Linda. I mean, she really managed me. Let's not get it wrong. She taught me how to practice law and I love her to this day for that. But they were like, here's your person, manage this person. And I'm like, what does that mean? And that's it. And then eventually I was also given some associates to manage. People just kind of expect that you know what you're supposed to do with this. And honestly, there were some people, if I were to think about some other personalities in my law firm, if those were my role models, I'm in big trouble because there were a lot of really bad, like to your point, a lot of really bad people, managers out there that just kind of like screamed and yelled and threw things. And I mean, like there's some, we have some stories, guys, we could tell, right? There's some bad behavior out there. And so, you know, it starts with, with building trust. And again, it seems so obvious, but I think this is even a point, I mean, I was told like almost keep a wall up, like you shouldn't get, you shouldn't become friends with your team. And I don't think we need them to be your best friend, but you actually, but you do need to know them. And so what do you say to people in that line and how, how professionals might approach that concept in a law firm?

[00:07:42] Speaker 3: Well, the key to building trust is through relationships. It is through, and it's not like trust fall trust. It's we can count on each other, right? If something's going on, we, you don't have to spill all the details, but we can count on each other and we can say, Hey, I've got an issue. And I don't think that we, from a trust perspective, the idea of transparency, the idea of communication, the idea from a leader's perspective of being a normal human that has issues, right? None of us are perfect leaders. None of us are perfect people. So how do we show up in a vulnerable way in a trust building versus trust busting kind of way and set the example for what that looks like?

[00:08:26] Speaker 1: I mean, I've done an episode on this before. It's been a while. The idea that trust is something that you can intentionally build. I think a lot of people just assume you just wake up one day and you've had this whole lengthy experience with someone. And so now they trust you, but there actually are some things that you can do. Like if you have a new relationship with someone, you need to do the work to build trust with that person. Or maybe you've been working with someone for a long time and you've never done that work, but this isn't just something that magically appears trust.

[00:08:58] Speaker 3: It does not. And it's really the human side of leadership. It is something as simple as how was your weekend is a trust builder. It doesn't have to be anything crazy. It doesn't have to be you fall back and I'll catch you. It can be, how was your weekend? It can be, is everything okay? I feel like something might be off. Is there anything I can do to help you? From a leader's perspective, it could be something like, hey, I sense that that rush that we had yesterday really stressed you out. And I'm sorry about that. That really was on me. I knew that deadline was coming up and I should have been more prepared. Those are the kinds of things that are trust building activities, right? It doesn't have to be by someone, something it doesn't have to, like there's, it's just so simple. It's about conversation, vulnerability, asking questions and actively listening.

[00:09:53] Speaker 1: Yeah. And you went, and I would add to that too, asking someone, you know, tell me some of your professional goals. Are there skills that you'd like to learn? How can I help you develop? Where do you want to go? No matter what your role is, there could be a next step. And how can I be your advocate to help you get what you want professionally, man, if somebody came to me as a, as, and said that, that that's another trust builder in the, and it shows that you're taking an active interest in that person and what they want in their life. So again, you don't have to, you don't have to be their best friend, but you should know what, what they want and you should know a little bit about their life. So you can ask those, how was your weekend questions?

[00:10:35] Speaker 3: Yeah. And sometimes it's as simple as like looking at their desk. Do they have a picture of a cat on their desk? Then you should say, is that your cat, right? It's just observing what's going on around you. There's so much information that people give us without actually giving us information that can help us make those connections.

[00:10:55] Speaker 1: Once we do know people, then, then we can, you know, and we've taken that interest in them. We kind of get to the next part of leading people. And so one of the things that we spend a lot of time talking about in the book is this idea of, of developing people and, and, and how to delegate and delegating to develop is probably the better way of saying it. Cause I think a lot of times we think delegate to get stuff, just get work off our plate. And we talk about this concept of the A player problem. And I wonder if you can explain that to us.

[00:11:26] Speaker 3: We've called it a few different things. I typically revert to calling it the overburdened A player, but I probably don't have to say much more than that. Then, and people have a picture of someone in their minds, right? It's the person who just gets things done. You can count on them. You know, their plate is full, but if you give them one more thing, they're going to figure out how to fit in that one more thing and make sure that they deliver it back to you. But the problem with the overburdened A players, especially when they're paired up with people who are not performing at that level, is at some point they look around and they say, why, why always me? Why can't some of these other people do some of these things? And I think that's where the, the delegation thing comes in and the development thing comes in. It's easy for you to give things to your A player because it doesn't need a lot of instruction. You could just like drop it and run. But what if you as a leader started bringing some things to other people on the team and thinking about like, how can I help them grow in this area so I can give them more things like, like this, except that we're busy. And the path of least resistance is to just keep running back to that A player. But we are obligated as leaders to really think about people development. And that's one way to start thinking about it.

[00:12:48] Speaker 1: It's harder to develop those people, but it's important, right? And one of the things we talk about in the book is these different identities we wear as leaders. And ultimately you want to go to, you want to become a multiplier. You want, you're going to, as a leader, you're judged not on your own individual output, but on the output of your team. And so investing the time it takes to develop those, you know, the B's and the C's and getting them to A's, wouldn't you rather have a whole team of A players? I mean, how many times have, you know, I know you and I are like, yeah, if, if everybody was an A player, the world would be easier, but that's on us. Like honestly, like we have to do the hard work of getting people to where they need to be. And so we also go into great detail to explain to people, how do you do that? Because you don't delegate all work the same way. There's actually different ways to delegate based on the person's skill level and their readiness level for the task at hand. So you may even have an A player who you want to do something new and that you may need to go back to the way you would delegate, like, you're not going to delegate the same way and just drop it on them because this is a new skill. And so you have to be really thoughtful. I think people don't realize how hard delegating really is when, when you kind of unpack all those layers. For sure.

[00:14:07] Speaker 3: I, I remember it might've even just been earlier this year. I did a session on delegation for a law firm and it was so interesting to hear their challenges with delegation, which was really just around setting expectations and being clear about what you needed. You know, when we started really unpacking, like when has delegation failed, it was always when you just drop something on someone's desk and you ask them to do it with no further instruction than that. So I love how much detail we go into in the book about how that adaptive delegation, how we need to be thinking about it dependent on the type of work and the type of skills of the people that we have.

[00:14:52] Speaker 1: Yeah. And again, I know we sort of hint, we talked about this last episode, but you know, then you get to the workbook. So in the book we talk about it, we give the stories, we give the examples, then we get to the workbook and I turned to the page and it's like, here's how you do this supporting delegation. Here's when you use it. Here's what it looks like. Here's what you say, like, again, a little script of like, hey, we need to do this. And you've been doing such and such so far. I'd like to add some responsibility to you, like to your point of clear expectations. I had a conversation recently, you're reminding me, where a leader said, well, they've been doing this for six months. So by now I just expect that they would know that they need to step up and they need to like be able to take the next three steps on their own. And I was like, that's interesting. Did you tell them that? And they were like, what? And I'm like, right. Like you've had them do it the same way for six months. So in your mind, they should just know that it's been six months, start doing the next five things. I was like, they don't like, no, that's not fair. So it's not just enough to change how we delegate. It's totally fair to say, hey, you've been doing a great job with this assignment. I'm super comfortable with the way we've done this, but I'm ready for you to take another step. So this time I want to do it differently. I want you to do the planning and you to take those steps and just check in with me at this point or give me an update here, but I'm not going to be as direct as I was with you when you were just first learning this skill. How awesome would that be? Our leaders sort of forget to say these things and then they get disappointed when we don't do what they thought, what we thought that they thought we wanted, whatever that is, you know what I'm trying to say.

[00:16:38] Speaker 3: And I think it's a great segue into thinking about feedback, right? Something that is interesting to me about feedback is pretty generally speaking, we struggle with constructive feedback, right? You know, it's just, it's a skill, it's a muscle to develop. But there are some people who also struggle with giving positive feedback. They feel awkward about it. They feel weird about it. I remember working with a firm and talking about this very topic and saying, if that person, when was the last time you told that person what a great job they're doing for you? And the lawyer just kind of like leaned back like, what? Like no, seriously. And I turned my chair because he was sitting next to me and I made really uncomfortable eye contact with him and said, hey, I just want to let you know, I really appreciate the extra mile that you have gone to get these three things done. I've noticed it. It's made a difference for me and it's made a difference for the client. And he just was like, I don't know how I would say that. And so just like that, just like that, exactly. Just like that. But it's really interesting to me that even giving positive feedback can sometimes be challenging. So if you're going to struggle giving positive feedback, you're probably going to also struggle giving that constructive feedback. And you can't develop people unless you're willing to do that. You can't, everyone is not going to be perfect at every task that you give them. And what they need to get there, what we need to do as leaders to get our people to that A player status is give them new work, set the expectations clearly, and then be very radically candid in the feedback that we give them when we get their work back.

[00:18:33] Speaker 1: And I just want to throw in a side note, because I know you and I have heard this way too many times, this idea of, well, if they haven't heard anything, they should know they're doing it the right way. Stop that. Please.

[00:18:46] Speaker 3: No news is good news. The no news is good news strategy. Yeah. No, no.

[00:18:51] Speaker 1: People need to hear it. Like, it feels good to hear it. And you're like, yeah, we need that validation. The only way we know to continue to do what we're doing or to change is that feedback, good and bad. So you definitely need to tell people. And also, yeah, like who doesn't love a good compliment?

[00:19:08] Speaker 3: Right. But it's part of it, like back to your point of getting to know your people, like when you build that trust, it is not, it might feel a little strange because you've never done it before. But to say to someone, tell me about the last time that you really felt appreciated. It doesn't have to be at work. It could be anywhere. But that kind of gives you a clue. Like some people want that company-wide, firm-wide shout out. Some people just want a quick little note via email or a little note left on their desk. Like, hey, thank you so much for doing that. Getting to know your people and getting to know what really makes them tick, it makes it so much easier to give that feedback, to delegate that work, to encourage people once you really know what makes them tick.

[00:19:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And then, obviously, we have the frameworks in the book when you do need to give the feedback because there's a formula that you can use. And again, we've had guests who've written books on this and have been on the show before. So guess what? You don't have to make it up and you don't need to be a compliment sandwich. That just sucks and doesn't work. But you can very clearly tell people, you know, here's the observable behavior I saw, this was the impact, and here's the result or here's what needs to change. It's very quick. It's very easy. So again, we give you frameworks and then we give you the scripts that you can use. And I think this is really where our network, like we talked about, the class that we do is super helpful because you get to come and practice and get those reps, right? Just like before you take a deposition or before you get a piece of evidence admitted, you just need to add bats. You just need to go through the motions of, here's how I authenticate this evidence and establish foundation and a hearsay exception. It's the same with giving feedback. You just need to practice it. It doesn't have to be that hard, but it's a muscle that you can build. Absolutely. All right. As we're wrapping up on leading people, there's a lot, there's a lot in this one. I feel like it's pretty meaty. What's a piece of homework we can, we can give for this episode that we can leave people with to think about this week?

[00:21:14] Speaker 3: So I'm going to give a piece of homework that is the one thing that we haven't specifically talked about, and that is the concept of holding standards. When we set expectations for people and they don't meet them, sometimes we have a tendency to feel like holding them to that standard is the same thing as being harsh. And what I would love to give the homework, the homework assignment for this episode is think about the people that you regularly work with, the people that are on your team, the people that you lead, and think about where there are opportunities to raise the bar where maybe you have set expectations and people aren't holding that standard and how you might think about having just one conversation about how you can alleviate some of the stress from you. Because as a leader, we often absorb the stress of other people not doing what they're supposed to do. How can you have just one small conversation with someone on your team around holding standards? I love it.

[00:22:16] Speaker 1: Make sure you tune in next time. We're going to be talking about leading operations.