Speaker 1: Tech will play a bigger and bigger part, especially with the emergence of digitalization in the fashion industry.

Speaker 2: Tech is now wearable and this is impacting user privacy, especially when it comes to their own data.

Speaker 1: When it comes down to IP rights in the fashion world, they largely are determined by copyright, trademark and design rights. It becomes a bit more complicated when you have 3D versions of items. There are many agencies working on something, then who owns what?

Speaker 2: Welcome to Legsor Podcast. Today, we are pleased to have Sara Malik, the founder of Sol International, a law firm specialized in sports law and fashion law. In the previous episode, we discussed sports law and legal tech. In this episode, we will discuss fashion law and legal tech. Sara, welcome back on our show. It's a pleasure to have you back.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Hussein. It's a real pleasure for me to be here again. We're going to talk about all things fashion. As I understand, we're going to talk about matters to do with sustainability, how tech can help that, privacy, data. Fashion is a huge industry. Tech will play a bigger and bigger part, I think, especially with the emergence of digitalization of the fashion industry, having things in a metaverse environment at some stage, having NFTs. All of those are probably future fashion, but certainly something that's of interest in the fashion world, even at this stage.

Speaker 2: It's going to be a beautiful episode. Given the advancement in the legal tech space, how do you keep your clients ahead of the curve when it comes to IP rights in this legal tech age?

Speaker 1: It's a good question. When it comes down to IP rights in the fashion world, they largely are determined by copyright, trademark, and design rights. Copyright and trademark deal with things like protecting brand names, logos, drawings. Design right is the actual appearance of a product, the physical appearance, and why that's novel. The IP rights and the potential conflicting provisions kick in when a garment, for example, is made into a 3D version because the designer of the garment doesn't necessarily own the design of the 3D version. That's owned by the agency or the individual who's done the design of the 3D version, and that's where it becomes complicated in terms of trying to protect the IP rights because the designer just holds hands over their dress or jacket or whatever the item might be, and that's then a 3D version of that might be made or a digital version. You need to have agreements in place at that stage, whether it's a software agreement or legal agreement or licensing. When the digital design is made, it's licensed back to the designer to be able to exploit it and use it. As long as you have the correct mechanisms in place, you get to determine as a lawyer with the client who owns what where to make sure any competing interests are dealt with. It becomes a bit more complicated when you have 3D versions of items, and there's many agencies working on something, then who owns what. Again, it's all catered for by proper software agreements and legal agreements in place. We would hope in the industry that people wouldn't be dishonorable. Even if somebody owned the digital right to something, the designer owned the design rights. They would work in tandem as opposed to trying to exploit as against each other. Again, those issues can come up. From the IP side, you really need to be able to determine and not assume that just because a designer's designed something, they have the right to the tech in that particular garment.

Speaker 2: Sara, we noticed the extensive use of e-commerce, especially to buy brands online. Now, we do understand that there are challenges for the brands from one side and for the consumer rights from the other side. What can you tell us about this?

Speaker 1: There are obviously legal challenges. E-commerce is a massive industry, and increasingly in the fashion world. Back in the day, there was a suggestion that unless you can physically touch something and see it, nobody's going to buy it, especially luxury items. That's now gone, and people want accessibility. With that comes issues in terms of trust. There's major threats, or some threats, not major, I should say, but threats that emerge in e-commerce is copying, really. When I'm looking at something online to buy, is it real? Is it authentic? What am I buying into? Is it a ripoff of another website? Is it a similar domain name? Is somebody trying to pass off a brand or something else? Those are the kind of issues from a consumer side that I'd be looking at. For the brands, it's whether somebody is trying to copy them that dilutes their brand or obviously causes losses. I think what happens is where there's trust that's built up in e-commerce, there are certain platforms or certain e-commerce. I buy online. I will only go to certain websites to buy from because I can vouch for the authenticity, and I know they're real. I think brands face, and they face it whether it's online or in real time or in real life, they face that issue of being copied. They face the issue of is it authentic? Is it correct? Is it a bad ripoff? There's also a lot of copying of strategies online. You can't necessarily copy something that's physical, a shop, but if there's a platform, there's a website. Another website might try and exactly copy whether it's promotional strategies, whether it's digital content. It's easier to copy that online than I could copy a shop and try and pretend I'm selling a brand. All of these factors have to be born into play. In terms of consumer rights, sometimes unwittingly, you may have a brand that's being sold, whether they don't have the rights to sell the way they're selling online, not the brand but the platform, and then whether the brand can come after the consumer to say, well, you bought something that isn't actually something we've authorized to sell. There's all these issues about the authorized usage of the brand on the e-commerce. I think increasingly, once you start doing your homework and look in the background, you'll know which are legitimate and which are not, but there are issues.

Speaker 2: Tech is now wearable, and this is impacting user privacy, especially when it comes to their own data. How are we dealing with these challenges right now?

Speaker 1: It's a good question. You have to have explicit user consent, I would say, before you're able to collect and use our personal data. Data protection worldwide is an issue. We've seen lots and lots of regulation everywhere about data protection. It's very important. Now, tech has advanced to the degree where we can wear tech. You can not only track me on a smartphone or you can see my movements through clothing, through shoes. Athletes, for example, their performance can be tracked through the clothing they're wearing. We can also know through something somebody's wearing where they are, geolocations after a shirt. All of those are privacy issues. They're safety and security issues. They're open and susceptible to attack and hacking, as any kind of tech is. The use of wearables has increased concerns about privacy and security of those wearing it. I think there needs to be more information generally about exactly how the information that the garment gives will be stored, where it's stored, how it's accessible, who's going to access it. The main thing is to get the buy-in or the consent of the person using it. Maybe when they're buying it to say, well, when you wear this, information is tracked and it's readily ascertainable. There's privacy concerns. You can understand from those privacy. There can be security concerns if somebody who's a celebrity is wearing something and somebody hacks into their whereabouts or otherwise. You can foresee issues that would arise. I think you need to tackle those privacy concerns with having clear data collection policies. You need to have content-based data sharing. You need to have end-to-end encryption, the same way we have on phones or otherwise, to secure the information that would otherwise be available. The geolocation privacy and the advancements that are taking place in tech and wearables, you need to have advanced encryption. You need to have user awareness. They need to understand when somebody needs to understand when they're buying something, what they're buying into, when biometrics or other matters can be tracked. I think that privacy integration needs to be there from the inception, when they take on the garment, when they buy the garment, and they need to be aware of what they're doing when they're buying that.

Speaker 2: Sara, recently, there is a lot of emphasis of socially responsible corporation and eco-friendly corporation in the industries of marketing and management, and we know that for sure from the textbooks everybody's talking about. Brands, they have a huge impact on the nature. How do you think being eco-friendly and socially responsible is as much important as being technologically advanced?

Speaker 1: I think it's hugely important and as important, if not more important. One of the factors that we can't get away from is where we have fast fashion. It comes at a huge cost, both environmentally and socially. The impacts of the fashion industry in terms of pollution, in terms of inequality, in terms of carbon emissions, in terms of waste, are huge. The fashion industry is a multi-trillion industry, employing millions of people across the world. There's now an emphasis on how does that work, especially with fast fashion, where something might be designed and in a store within days, or you can order it online, very, very cheap. And questions arise of, well, how does that happen? How are you able to buy something for a couple of dollars? And that's something that's been put together from buying the material to paying the people who are making it to getting it shipped out and logistics to you. Why is it so cheap? Well, that comes at a cost. We then start to look at how are people employed, what are the conditions they're in. We look at the kind of sustainability of the supply chain as well, of how does something get from A to Z. The fashion industry is accountable. There's huge wastage. We often see with some of the fast fashion, people are more likely to order something. I don't like it. I'm not going to bother sending it back. I'll just throw it away. And then there's an environmental issue. We also have issues in terms of greenwashing that's become a litigious playground at the moment, where big brands are pretending that they are a lot more eco-friendly and eco-conscious than they actually are, because that's fashionable to say that. Everybody's bothered about the environment. Everybody needs to be bothered about the environment. And it's a trend that sometimes in the fashion industry is exploited, where brands will try and say, and you'll see a sign on their labels, oh, eco-friendly, this is a conscious wear, conscious clothing. And they've been taken on to say, well, actually, that's not true. So all of these factors, because of the value of the fashion industry, the way it's grown, are becoming more and more important. And the question you put to me is how important is it with the tech? I think it's as important, if not more. And I think it'd be great if tech could find a way to immerse itself into the eco side of things. So there's some kind of immutable way of actually being able to see how sustainable or how eco-friendly is this brand or what they say they're doing. And the tech can prove if they are, if they're not. I think that would be a great game changer in the fashion industry. Amazing.