Speaker 1: All right, let's do this. So this one is short and simple, and it says, what type of jobs and common project tasks match up to each part of the Addy process? Is it possible that one person would have to do it all for a job? William, do you want to tackle this one first, or do you want me to tackle this one?

Speaker 2: Maybe I'll start off if that's okay. Go right ahead, of course. So based on all the people I've spoken with, and all the different industries, I can confirm that instructional design is a very, very broad field. And there are so many different niches and specializations and stuff. And I've often heard of a mysterious instructional design person who is able to do all of these things. And they're often referred to as a unicorn, because they're quite hard to find. But I'm kind of curious about what you think, if you agree with that.

Speaker 1: Yes. So definitely the magical unicorns, while they do exist, it is certainly hard to find. But the one thing I kind of want to take a step back from, because maybe not everyone knows about the Addy model. So being able to explain about that a little bit more. So if you do not know what this stands for, Addy stands for analyze, design, deliver, implement, and sorry, no, develop, analyze, design, develop, implement, and evaluate. And what this really means, if you think about it from a common sense perspective, it does make sense that you are first starting with being able to conduct the research to figure out exactly, is this really a problem that's going to be worth solving? What is the purpose of it? What is the overarching end goal? Does it actually make sense to be able to do this? And then you walk through a series of steps to be able to figure out how to design the product, how to be able to build it, to put it together, to launch it, to collect feedback, make sure everyone is trained properly, so on and so forth. There could be literally an entire podcast episode talking about Addy, if we really wish to be able to do so. But the thing that I want to be able to clear up though, and I believe you have the same perspective as well too, William, is that it's not this type of linear process that you complete everything with analysis first. And then you move into the next step. And then you complete everything. It's like, that's not how it works within the real world. It really much so is that you do one thing, you evaluate how that's going, you get feedback. I mean, you try to be able to move to the next step, the next and the next. And it's an ever evolving, changing type of process. It's not that you're locked in for sure into one thing and you can't move on to the next. Is that how you feel about this as well?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think maybe it's this interpretation of the Addy process that gives it so much flack, you know, people think that it's a linear process. So they say, okay, well, let's rather use Agile or something else as a project management framework. But from my experience, the Addy process, I mean, there isn't even like a seminal Addy process. Every single Addy process is an adaptation of what people think Addy is, you know? So I've gone to like organizations and I've chatted with people and they'll each describe their own processes and sub-processes within each of the phases of Addy to meet the conditions or the circumstances that they have. So yeah, a hundred percent, I definitely agree with you there.

Speaker 1: Exactly. Because that's also too, when things can get really tricky. So for instance, let's say William, that you and I, we both talk about ChatGPT a lot. Let's say that we're creating a course about ChatGPT and it's going to be out there to essentially train educators. And we're going to be educating them about how to actually use ChatGPT for the classroom. Let's say that we do everything as far as with the analysis and we're going through, we're conducting all this research, we're finding out all of this information. And then we start moving on into the design phase. Well, then all of a sudden, let's say that ChatGPT releases a brand new version. There's a huge update or something along those lines. That doesn't mean that we're just going to ignore that. We're just going to be like, oh, that's too bad. Let's keep on going. It's like, no, we got to stop and pause and think here, what do we need to do to bring in this new information? Is this still even a viable product? Is it, are we scrapping this entirely? Which is totally possible, especially with this ever-changing landscape of technology that nothing is going to be evergreen anymore. And talking about specifically within tech, which is so hard to be able to do as I'm trying to make different types of offerings right now within the tech space. And it's like, yeah, you really got to figure out what is the purpose behind the product? Why exactly should children be taking this? What are the goals of everything you're trying to be able to achieve as far as for a unit, an organization, like a business goal, essentially about does it actually make sense to be able to do? So with all of that in mind, you're constantly revising and evaluating and going back into the process. But I did want to though, speak to this person's point when they're asking about this question of like, so if you're not the magical unicorn, let's say, is there actually a job out there where people do, let's say, hire for one stage compared to another? And I can tell you for a fact that that is true. It is a bit unusual, but I have worked at a university before where essentially they had the, if you took like the beginning of the A and the D stage, that's what their designers did. But then when it came to actually develop and put it into the learning management system that they used at the time, they handed it over to a developer who then built everything. And then that was then handed off into the next line of people, which is going to be the team leads, who essentially would be training the trainer, training the instructors to know how to actually then teach and to facilitate this content. Then it went into a course evaluation team, which would be the E. So there were indeed jobs that lined up to each stage. It's not always a common thing, but I have seen it done. So it's possible, but it's...

Speaker 2: I've even been in an office where the entire instructional design unit was the desks were structured according to the Addy process, which is pretty cool. So they had the people who did the investigation and the analysis and design phase. They were by the door and then the developers were kind of in the back and the LMS administrators and the people who did all the technical stuff and the kind of implementation phase, people were in the back, which kind of felt... I felt sorry for the people in the back because the front of the office had a nicer view, but you know...

Speaker 1: I was just going to say where the lights dimmer because that's what always... But where developers sit, they're always just like, put me in the dark. Just let me do my work. Yeah, exactly. Hunched over, leave me alone. Just let me do my thing. So that's usually how... That's what I've always seen in every office I've ever worked at. That's been the trend. So that makes sense to me.

Speaker 2: You can also add that it probably depends on the organization size. So if an organization consists of 15 people, there'll probably be one instructional designer if there even is an instructional designer. So let's say it's a really small organization, you'll probably have a jack of all trades. You'll get a person who is loosely responsible for all of these things. At least that's from my perspective what will happen.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Because my team right now is a team of... We just hired another person. So now we're a team of six of us. But I still do everything. I do every single part of this entire Superfund journey. And yes, I do coordinate with the marketing team, the engineering team, the customer support team. But I am still somewhat present in every single step and involved within everything. And because my team is small, that's why, talking to your point. Because what I was giving with that example from that past university, they were huge. So it was just like, all right, if you have a team of 30 instructional designers, then obviously it's really different. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And I mean, in a small team, you probably have people who have strengths. So you'll get someone who's really good at the maybe development side. So you'll probably try to leverage those strengths and maybe someone else prefers talking to stakeholders and the project management type stuff as well. I mean, it really depends on, I think, what people like doing and how that process is built in that specific context.

Speaker 1: Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you want to hear an example about more from Addy, for at least from the corporate perspective, when I interviewed Shreya Gupta before she is the learning experience designer over at Amazon, she actually walks us through inside of that entire episode about how she uses Addy in the real world, which was extremely insightful to hear about. Yes, it's her and it's her division and it doesn't speak for all of Amazon, but it was really interesting to hear about how she actually does it and how she works with engineers and how she kind of goes to follow that different types of things. So if you want to hear more about an example from a corporate perspective, you can definitely listen to that one as well. And then the other one that obviously we have to be able to plug in and mention because we're both a part of is that if you want to go into instructional design principles for course creators over at EduFlow Academy, we do talk about Addy. Like definitely you would be exploring and experiencing that at least for the first three, for the A, the D and the D, you're definitely going to be hitting home for that one. We do cover the I and the E, but not as extensively, but definitely folks should be able to do that as well. If you want to speak any more to that, please feel free because I know you are the, you're the main voice behind that. I'm just one of them.

Speaker 2: I think the enrollment is going to close soon. So if you're listening to this podcast, you should probably go over to eduflow.com forward slash Academy. And then I think the instructional design principles course will be on the first clickable button. And then you can quickly go book your seat before time runs out. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: A free cohort about the learning nerd world. What's not to love? So be sure to do that. We'll see you there. Of course, if you apply and you're accepted, fantastic. Can't wait to work with you. But William, I think we covered that one. Are we good there?

Speaker 2: Actually, I can add one more thing. Yes, go for it. So there's this really cool tool by the association for talent development, ATD. And they've got this capability model that it kind of like tracks all of the different skills and things that people do in the talent space. And they even have a little self-assessment. So if you want to see how your skills stack up or how your ability stack up, you know, against like key competencies in this field, that self-assessment might be a really nice place to start. You might figure out where you're really good and you might figure out where you need to maybe work on some things. And then, yeah, even in the self-assessment, they can even recommend ATD courses that could help you plug those gaps.

Speaker 1: Interesting. Cool. Well, that will be in the show notes because I'm going to figure that out and grab that link from you after the show. So go down below my show notes and you can find all the things that we have been talking about so far.