Speaker 1: I've been watching you guys videos on creators and interviews on the YouTube landscape for a while. You've been also, Andrew, you've been watching a couple of them. I've been telling everybody to watch them just because they're really good, but also like let's find as many different ways to tie these experiences we've had together as we can. But one of the common things I've noticed, so we've talked about like everything from like the Mr. Beast of the world to all the other tech YouTube creators. The one thing that I keep noticing that I always want to like explore is the advice that you can get from a creator about YouTube, about the platform, about how to make better videos doesn't necessarily always apply. And so watching, so I'll just go ahead and plug right off the bat, it'll be in the show notes, the video you did with Jimmy where you hung out with him, you were in his studio, get all kinds of this awesome information out of him and about YouTube and about the way he approaches making videos. And I want to listen to that whole thing and just take every little bit of advice I possibly can to make our videos better, but not all of it actually works and applies to tech. So I'll just give a quick example. You might say something like, you really want to be introducing people to a storyline within the first 10 seconds of a video, but that bit of advice might not work if you're trying to review a product, for example, and you have to talk to the person considering buying the thing immediately. They would leave if you start telling a story and it has nothing to do with the product. So I'm curious when you guys talk to a bunch of different creators in different genres who have different pieces of advice that they give, do you find that there's more overlap or almost no overlap between, let's say, a beauty creator or a tech creator or a vlogger and all the different types of YouTubers you've talked to?

Speaker 2: So I personally actually disagree about what you just said about tech videos. Interesting. I don't think you can introduce multiple narratives, introduce new stories when it comes to the product. It's just not the same way. It's not you telling a story, but if you said like, there's two things I really like about this and one thing I really don't, all of a sudden you've just introduced something that I'm waiting for. I see. That's a story. What's the thing Marques doesn't like about this? And I'm waiting for that. And so I think actually a lot of the advice that he's giving is the way I take it is more of this just general storytelling advice. And if you're introducing a product and there's no tension, there's nothing new that's going to happen, then I might not stick around. And I think Colin should explain also this advice from the creators of South Park when it comes to storytelling. And I actually think storytelling advice applies to everyone who's telling a story.

Speaker 3: Yeah. There's this clip where the creators of South Park are speaking to a class and they said that a really bad story will go like this. It'll go, this happened, then this happened, then this happened, then this happened. And you think like that's an extremely boring way to intake information. And what you want is a story that goes, this happened, but then that happened, therefore this happened. So you want some causation between the beats in your story. And I think that's something that could exist completely in a tech video where you're saying, here's this new phone that was just launched. Technology has shown us that it's been really incredible. It's been an incredible line of products, but this one is different. Therefore you should think differently. Right? And if you can keep that going throughout, you'll hook people and keep them longer.

Speaker 1: I think one of the interesting things about reviewing tech products is a large part of what we do is actually deciding which products to review, if I'm just like narrowing it down to reviewers. And so it usually turns out that the stuff we review is at the most extremes. It's either the best stuff and we want to highlight it and show you, or it's like the worst stuff and it's like, I got to warn you not to buy this. And then there's a whole bunch of stuff in the middle that's like most tech, which is like fine. And sometimes it can be really hard to pull a story out of the stuff that's fine. Like you'll get to this whole line of products has been fine. This one's also fine. Stay tuned. Like, so I find like a lot of channels are like trying to pull a story, not even a story, but just trying to like exaggerate things to create a better video, which may actually shift the conclusion about the product.

Speaker 2: So I think there's two things. One, it's like the way you, the way you reveal information to the audience is, you know, part of that kind of retention strategy that you can pull is like, okay, I'm going to save this piece of information for there, but I'm going to tell them I'm going to say it. There's a little bit of like, I can hook them, but I also think there's completely different tension and release points in different formats. So all good storytelling is going to build a ton of tension in the viewer and then release it. Right. That's what it is. It's like, I want to, I'm curious about something and then you let me know. And so I think a tech review is inherently a bunch of tension because it's like, I want to know Marquez's take on this. And so that's the tension, the release is watching it. So I agree with you that it's not apples to apples, but I also would say that I think that some of the storytelling advice that you can take from, you know, someone who's able to capture, you know, a hundred million people's attention, then I think you can apply small bits of that. And I think that the thing is like Jimmy on our interview, but then also Jimmy, us spending four days with him in North Carolina, like the in between moments you get a lot of Jimmy where he's just speaking more directly to us, at least like about our content and being more, you know, kind of understanding of what our goals are. And so I think the more time we spent together, the more he started giving us advice that was catered to our channel. And I think that's a pretty unique experience. But I think there's like general storytelling advice. And at the same time, I would say that, you know, he reaches an incredibly broad audience.

Speaker 1: The most broad.

Speaker 2: The most broad. And I think there's different tactics to building a niche community. And I think the way I view the internet and how I like to interact with it is through niche communities. I mean, our first business was a network, a sports network dedicated to lacrosse. That's a niche community that I'm a part of. And the creator community is another niche community I feel a part of. And so now I think we're creating content for that community. So I want to be a little bit more narrow and I don't actually want the most broad audience.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And we won't take his advice to the fullest extreme because if we did, I mean, our videos would be edited down to six minutes for attention. They would take us forever and we would leave out valuable things. Sometimes letting someone speak for us for four to five minutes is valuable. Yeah. Right. And so we need to make that decision of, yeah, no, our audience, because we know them because it is niche, wants to hear about that.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Got it.

Speaker 1: Do you think you would, you think you would last in a Mr. Beast challenge? Which challenge? I'm trying to think.

Speaker 4: Keeping your hand on something. I mean, keeping your hand on a phone. That's his app.

Speaker 1: I could definitely keep my hand on a phone. No, I'm pretty, I'm pretty, I'm decently like mobile and athletic and I don't, I don't know. Like if I, if you put me up against other creators and editors, I'd feel pretty confident because most creating and editing is like sitting down. Like endurance. Yeah. I feel like I have a little bit of a physical advantage, but again, it depends on what the

Speaker 4: challenge is. I think I'm going to sit in a seat with poor posture for probably the longest. Yeah. I get to hunt for hours.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Hours. All right. So a lot of what we've talked about also in the YouTube world is YouTube as a platform has relationship with its creators in a way that not every platform does. Like not every platform sends plaques to its creators when they reach milestones and has like creator, you know, teams that work with us and things like that. I'm curious from you, what are like the biggest complaints that you've seen from creators to YouTube? Cause I feel like here we're, I don't want to say isolated, but it seems like every gate or every like big problem that YouTube has seemingly, seemingly doesn't really affect our channel very much. Whether that's because we're a tech channel or we're a PG channel or over a friendly channel to YouTube or whatever it is, it seems like we've been pretty safe from all of it. And I guess that's why, but I'm curious what sort of things you guys see that ring true the most often among other creators.

Speaker 2: I think the number one complaint from creators that I hear is the inability to AB test thumbnails. Because I think thumbnails are this like incredibly stressful part of our job.

Speaker 1: Do you remember when it was just like the middle frame of the video? You could game that system pretty easily and it became like you need to be a partner to upload a thumbnail. Yep. I think everyone who is like, anyone can upload thumbnails now, right?

Speaker 2: I think. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. But like thumbnail designer is becoming, it's great that it's becoming like a job in our world, right? And it's like, that's a difference between a million views and a hundred thousand views a lot of times is your thumbnail. But I think that's the most stressful part of creating is that you make this amazing video. Not only do you have to be like, to be a YouTuber, not only do you have to be good on camera, but you also have to be a good producer. Yeah. So there should be a good director, a good animator, a good editor. Like you have to be all these different things. And then on top of that, you have to be really good at packaging. And that's actually what you find out over time is that actually the most important part of the job then. Yeah. And I think the importance of that is really positive because it increases like the barrier to entry and makes the quality really good. But I think thumbnails today are causing a lot of creators, a lot of stress and are the biggest complaint is like, can we just AB test? Yeah. It seems like it's such a simple fix, but I would say that's the biggest complaint. It would be nice.

Speaker 4: We were just talking about this the other day, but, um, would you be, uh, open to being able to change? So when it kind of auto plays on your, say your smart TV or like when you're hovering over something on the web and you don't get to choose what that auto plays, like being able to now change that similar to a thumbnail and do you think that could increase click through?

Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I've seen people do that on, uh, on Instagram reels and tick tock. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Like being able to do that. Yeah. Cause we've had ones where we just released a studio video where we had the Rivian and it has this like gear tunnel in the bottom and the clip it shows was Tim crawling through that gear tunnel. So like super fun. Right. We've had other reviews where it chooses like half of that one second is Marquez in a role and the other half is switching to B roll and looks terrible when I like those, right?

Speaker 3: It happens though. Sometimes they'll choose B roll or a graphic that doesn't really have to do exactly with the video.

Speaker 4: Yeah. And I've chosen stuff on my like smart TV because I accidentally scrolled over it and that one clip was like, that was kind of interesting. I think I'm going to watch the video now. Yeah.

Speaker 1: I believe that's a AI selected at this point, whether it's from retention or just from a random point.

Speaker 2: I think they try and choose a face. Typically.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all of my videos have a face in them. Sometimes it doesn't pick a face and I find that odd. Yeah. I think so. I see a lot of, I agree with AB testing thumbnails. I think that would be great. I would use that for sure. So I agree definitely that AB testing thumbnails would be fun. I would love to. I would do that all the time, but I also am probably among the YouTubers that I know and associate with in the tech world. I'm probably the one that changes my thumbnails the least. I think I see a lot of people upload a video with a title and a thumbnail and then an hour later change the title and then an hour later change the thumbnail and then change the title and the thumbnail and I'll come across it a third time in my home on my home feed or something. I'm like, I think I've watched this already, but it has a different title and thumbnail. So maybe I haven't. Would you, do you guys play with title and thumbnail at all? Do you find that that's like a major, major part of how you package a video and manipulating it and changing the way it performs or no?

Speaker 3: We do play with them, but from my perspective, if we're frantically changing titles and thumbnails, we made a mistake much earlier in the process. If we have good ideas, make titles and thumbnails easy. So we try and make sure we have that figured out before we even make the decision to start filming or scripting the video.

Speaker 2: It's kind of changed our process to just say, Hey, let's start that way in the beginning and say, okay, we have this idea, but wait, before we take any other steps, how do you package this idea?

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one of the conversations I had with Jimmy was like, when do you pick the title and thumbnail? For him, it's before the video even gets shot at all. And for us, we were like, well, that sounds like great advice. Let's see how early we can apply it. But if we're reviewing a piece of tech and we don't know how good it is, and we don't know if we're going to recommend it or not, I can't choose a title and thumbnail before testing the thing. So I got to test the thing. And then maybe at that point, when I'm starting to write the actual video, I can pick a title and thumbnail, but that's much later in the process. And at that point, I don't know anymore if it's a good title and thumbnail.

Speaker 3: So that might be with new formats, because you have a lot of formats, too, where you know first impressions, you're going to put that in the title. That is true. Yeah. And so that's what we're in the process of finding, or what are our formats where it'll make it easy for us and for our audience?

Speaker 4: That does look kind of annoying sometimes when we know we have to put Galaxy S21 Ultra first impressions. Now the actual title we give it basically has to be three to four words. We have to limit ourselves from that, so that's kind of a pain sometimes. But yeah, it is nice to be able to just always say impressions or something like that. Half the time, our titles are created in the uploading process. Yeah. So the video is done. We're still brainstorming it.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I have this checklist of the process of making a video, and it's usually as I'm uploading a video that I am finishing what I think the title should be. I have my last two or three options for a title, and we're shooting the thumbnail at that moment. I don't know if that's ... I mean, there are lots of tech topics and other ways to come up with a title and thumbnail first and craft a video around it, but specifically for reviews, that's been a challenge of mine is packaging the video in an earlier than as I upload way.

Speaker 3: That's like us for interviews. We just filmed an interview with you. We don't know exactly what the title thumbnail is going to be.

Speaker 2: We have a loose idea going into the interview. Coolest guy ever. Yes. That was it. That was it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have another complaint about ... The other common complaint is I don't make enough money. AdSense, this, that, or the other. My perspective on that is for so many years, because we were in such a niche topic, AdSense was not a part of our business model at all. I don't believe that YouTube owes us anything for uploading videos to YouTube. I just don't believe it. I think my perspective is just that it's our job to make a business out of it. If we can find audience, that's on us. YouTube gives us the platform, and it's a search engine, and they give us the tech. AdSense, I always look as like it's a cherry on top of our business. Luckily, I think over the past year, our growth has been such that it's a nice cherry on top, but I just don't view it. I think any creator who's starting out and being frustrated that YouTube's not paying enough, it's like you have to be doing this for a long time for that to be a significant source of revenue.

Speaker 1: Thanks for watching that clip of the podcast with Collin and Samir. It's always fun having creator guests on, and that's why I want to ask you, now that you've seen the clip, who else do you want to have in the comment section on the Waveform podcast? I think other creators would be great suggestions.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I love other creators. They don't have to be tech creators, but just like if you're on YouTube in general, there's some sort of conversation we can have.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so let us know on this clip who you'd like to see, and we'll reach out.

Speaker 4: Subscriptions aren't open unless you hit the subscribe button, so press it. Very important.

Speaker 1: Just test her out. Call to action. Having Collin and Samir on makes sense. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 4: We get to that, so hit the red button. Good point, good point.

Speaker 1: Do it for Collin and Samir. See you guys next time.