Speaker 1: Start planning ahead of time, start networking, and just making connections in the community so that when it is time, you feel like, okay, it's almost time to hire. You can kind of start more naturally instead of panicking.

Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and thank you for listening to the I Love Bookkeeping podcast. My name is Hannah Robinson. And I'm Melissa Honan. And thank you so much for tuning in. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss a new episode out every Tuesday and Thursday. Today, we're going to be continuing our series on how to hire and we're going to be diving into interviewing. Interviewing can be a daunting process, I feel like, and it can be really intimidating, especially if you're not used to interviewing. So I think knowing, having a lot of clarity on what you need, what you're the role you're looking for, and also the type of person that you're looking for and just being very niched with the type of employee or subcontractor that you're seeking. I think that's one of the best first steps that you can take when it comes to interviewing.

Speaker 1: A thousand percent. And honestly, I really think that a lot of people kind of shoot from the hip when they're interviewing. They don't necessarily have a good plan in place. They're just kind of waiting for, oh yeah, when I know, I'll know. But having a really clear cut process for how to interview and what those steps are going to be is, I think, really key in managing the expectations of those that are interviewing, but also will kind of keep you in check to make sure you follow your own process, which has you set up for success to find the right person.

Speaker 2: Right. Well, and I think if you're new to the interviewing process and you're new to hiring, I think it can be really kind of intimidating and you just are looking, you kind of get to a point where you're desperate for help, right? And so you maybe lower your expectations when it comes to interviewing and really that usually turns around and kind of bites you in the ass in the long run.

Speaker 1: Every single time. Every single time I panic hire, it's a terrible idea. So I think we've talked about this beforehand. Don't wait until you need to panic hire. Start planning ahead of time. Start networking and just making connections in the community so that when it is time, you feel like, okay, it's almost time to hire. You can kind of start more naturally instead of panicking, oh my gosh, I have two times as many clients as I should. And now I just need to get a warm body in here. A warm body is the worst idea you guys can do. I've done it, especially when it comes to bookkeeping. And I'll tell you right now, paying somebody that actually knows what they're doing to clean it up will be more expensive later.

Speaker 2: What are some ways that you can get that those who are listening, what are some ways they can get really kind of clear on how to vet somebody in an interview so that they can best hire for what they're looking for?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I stole this from just everyone on the internet. And so that would be my advice is Google other people's hiring practices or recommendations for hiring and pick and choose what you like from all the different places, right? It's not intellectual property and they're sharing it freely on the internet. So just take their process. One thing I will say as far as when, a lot of times your first hire is going to be a is that the difference here between interviewing for a bookkeeper and interviewing for any other position you're going to find in the internet is that there is a level of skill that they need to have, right? And so for that, I always highly recommend a bookkeeping practical interview. This is something that we have, we have an outline on how to do it. You could take things from the QuickBooks exams. You can take things from BBL. You can just, you know, make it up on your own, but you do want to check that bookkeepers actually know how to bookkeep and have them do it in front of you and show you.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And how, what are, I guess, what are some of the red flags and the green flags of personality? I guess personality traits that you're looking for in somebody that you're interviewing that tell you that they're a good fit or tell you that they're not a good fit.

Speaker 1: So if I'm going with bookkeepers, I'm going to, cause I think it's different for every position. So I'm going to go with bookkeepers cause I think that'll help the most people and think about what makes you a good bookkeeper. I, assuming you're a good bookkeeper, I'm not right. So I think about all the things that I'm terrible at, right. Attention to detail. And so, you know, we talked about this in the job description and the job posting about that, like little hidden nugget about putting a specific subject line, um, or, you know, make sure you mentioned the color purple, whatever it is, but, um, a big, big, big red flag is if they cannot follow instructions. If they cannot follow, uh, you know, application and interview instructions, what makes you think they're going to be able to follow your bookkeeping process? So that, that to me is the biggest red flag. If I noticed that somebody drops the ball on attention to detail once during the interview process, that's it for me. Um, and I used to be much more forgiving on this. And every single time I gave someone a second chance on this, they proved to me that they did not have the attention to detail that they needed. So, um, that's the biggest, I think, red flag for me, green flag is anytime a candidate sends a, either like an email ahead of the interview or after the interview. So like sending an email, just saying, Hey, you know, I really look forward to meeting with you on Thursday. Um, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever, you know, I've seen so many different versions of that. And then also like a thank you email that's like, I just wanted to thank you again for meeting with me. And I want to reiterate that I'm interested in this position, that type of thing. That is such a green flag to me. Um, because it just is like, that's like the old school professionalism, you know, like we don't do that stuff as much anymore. Right. Cause we don't have to like, you used to have to go in and like actually like get a paper application and fill out a paper application and then like, um, you know, send a handwritten thank you note, all this different stuff that you used to do. So like for me, when you go above and beyond, um, and you try to make that connection either before or after the interview, it just shows me not only that you're bought in and interested, um, but that you have a level of professionalism that I will not have to ask you for it. Like you are doing it on your own. Um, that is such a green flag for me.

Speaker 2: I also feel like that a lot of the times when you're doing the panic interview, you tend to overlook and settle. Um, and really you should, it's like, it's kind of like dating almost. You need to look at it. It's worse. It's so much worse. Um, yeah, because it's like, you need to pay attention to the actions, um, that actually back up the person that you're looking to hire. I feel like looking at actions are so much more important than looking at words and looking at, obviously resumes are extremely important to look at, but I think you're gonna, the proof is in the pudding and you need to look at what kind of value this person can bring to your team and if it's going to be a longterm good fit because ultimately you don't want that high turnover, right? Like it's, nobody wants to hire someone and realize, oh, well I'll overlook this. I shouldn't have overlooked this. Even though there are kind of some signs, maybe there weren't. I think it's really rare that you get totally catfished in an interview.

Speaker 1: And that's, that's the, the reason why I say that it's worse than dating specifically. And I have gone on such a rant about this to all of my friends that was like, if I end up divorced, I will just die alone. I will never date again. So for me to say that this is worse than dating, you gotta know. And the reason I say that is because it has to do with money and I am so financially motivated. Like we've talked about motivation for employees before. I think quite a few series ago, I remember we talked about this, um, how not everyone's financially motivated and you have to find, you know, do they want positive reinforcement or do they want, you know, negative reinforcement? I am financially motivated. Like if you put dollar signs in, like what you want me to do, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do that. I want money. Um, and it's just, uh, because I think of the way that I grew up, I didn't have money when I grew up. And so to me, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to go and I'm going to get money. Um, cause that makes the world round anyway. Um, I think that it's worse than dating because of the cost associated to if you mess this up, right? You, you mess up a date, like whatever, find another. There's a thousand fish in the sea. You mess up and hire the wrong person. Start calculating that as a small business owner. Not only your time spent in the interviewing process, but all of the, like all of the salary that you're paying them, um, while they work for you and they're not performing, um, then also your time spent times the, the dollar amount that you could be selling or doing marketing or, you know, money, you know, making, uh, operations, um, and then think about they don't work out. You have to let them go. Then you're potentially having to pay them unemployment. Then you have to start your hiring process again. And so it just costs you what, 20 grand. Like that's, we're serious. Like we're, we're not talking in like, it's one thing. And I think I, I've been interviewing a lot lately. And I think that some people from the bookkeeper launch community, um, we're, we are a big company, but we're still a small business. So it's not like you're interviewing for, you know, one of the big four accounting firms. Like I don't have an endless budget and it is a huge difference in, I guess, what is possible I think, or what's feasible when you're interviewing for a small firm. Um, and you really like, if, if we're making an offer to you, um, you gotta know, like you killed it because, you know, KPMG 20, 30, $40,000, an employee doesn't work out whatever. Like, that's a huge deal. Like think about that guys, like, especially for those of you that are just starting off, you got three, $5,000 and, uh, you know, monthly querying revenue, you're going to pay somebody say $2,500 a month, you know, they don't work out and you're out what, 10, 15 grand. That's insane. So you really like, I'm just going through this and really just like beating a dead horse. I have to remember like the PETA approved version of that saying, um, but, but beating a dead horse, just to say like, do not panic. Like what, even if you are so late, you have not done your due diligence. You're just behind the boat. Do whatever you can to slow it down and still take the time to interview. Because I'm telling you right now, it's going to cost you so much money. And again, I've been there, um, I, I can think of two times where I had account managers and I added it up and in a year, uh, it was close to over about $120,000 that essentially we just threw in the trash.

Speaker 2: Jeez. Yeah. Oh, and that's a, that's a common mistake that a lot of people make starting out in the interviewing process. Um, the red flags were there guys.

Speaker 1: I look back and I'm like, Oh, those were lots of red flags, but I was desperate.

Speaker 2: That was a bad ex-boyfriend. That was exactly. So for those who are listening, who maybe have already hired and they've made some mistakes along the way in the interviewing process, um, what would be your biggest piece of advice for, because I know you've gone through this for kind of changing your interviewing process to be more, I guess, quality over quantity.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Ask the people that you hire. That's literally what we did, um, for I think three or four different rounds. Um, when we were onboarding new employees and subcontractors is what was the interviewing process like for you and what was the onboarding process and how could it be better? And then we just, every single time took all of their feedback and improved. So, but you know, before looking externally or before racking your brain, like ask the people that are actually going through it and that's going to be the best advice that you can take.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I also feel like if you ask your current employees, they're able to provide that not necessarily criticism, but they can give you some feedback on what's working and what's not working. Because I think as a boss, you kind of, you have your tunnel vision and you're not experiencing the same things that your employees are experiencing.

Speaker 1: Exactly. I think also too, because we're on the other end, whereas I don't, when was the last time you interviewed anywhere, Hannah? Oh my God. So I think that's the thing to think about the last time, like as a business owner, especially like I have not interviewed for a job in 11 years. Geez. Maybe, maybe longer.

Speaker 2: I think it's been like six or seven years for me.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So talk to the people that are actually interviewing. Yeah. Because we don't remember. We're ancient. We don't remember what it's like.

Speaker 2: Yeah. God. So another question kind of on the flip side, when you're in an interview and the person interviewing you, let's say you're the, you're the prospective employee. The person interviewing you says, what questions do you have for me?

Speaker 1: Oh dude, Google this. I love this. Seriously. Google what to ask at the end of an interview, because I've, I've read so many different things on it that you shouldn't just say you don't have any questions because everyone has questions at some point. Right. And it just makes you seem like agreeable, but also as if you're like not taking it seriously. Like there's a lot of psychology behind it, but yeah, I, I've Googled those questions. There's a lot of great questions. And I have to say as the person on the other side that I see a significant difference in the candidates that just say, Nope, no questions. Everything's fine. Versus those that actually have questions about our work culture you know, the expectations of the job. How often are there performance reviews you know, is this a new position or are we replacing somebody? All of the, I just see such a difference in the level of professionalism, but also I guess how serious they take the position because interviewing is two ways, right? I really believe that candidates are interviewing our company just as much as we're interviewing them.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So what are some, can you share some green flag questions and red flag questions that people ask when you typically ask that question as the interviewer? Yeah.

Speaker 1: I don't, I can't think of any red flag questions. I've had a lot of like asking because our, you know, our benefits are different than like if you're working for a big firm, right? We don't have health insurance. We have a QSERA, which is a health reimbursement. And then we have the self-care reimbursement you know, and the different benefits that we offer. A lot of people just ask for clarity on what those mean. And then some like super like, you know, big people that are known in an interviewing say like, oh, you know, applicant shouldn't talk about pay in the first interview. I think that's bullshit. It's not a red flag to me in any way. I want to make sure that you know, the compensation will be good for both of us because I don't want to waste my time. I, unfortunately I've done that a few times where I've gone through an entire process and realized like I can't even come close to what they want to make. So for me, I think any question is a green flag to know that people are really considering like if people are asking you further questions, they're interested. So to me, it's like, okay, you're interested in my company. I'm willing to answer anything you've got.

Speaker 2: It's so funny that you mentioned that because I feel like I've had job interviews where I just, I black out as the employee. Like I just totally black out because I'm nervous. I'm not great under pressure and or used to when I was younger and less confident, I thought that not asking questions was like the right thing to do because they didn't want to waste their time hearing me talk. And then now looking back, I'm like, I could have avoided so many traumatic situations

Speaker 1: by asking questions. So I was, I was the same way because I, and we've talked about this before, I'm not just an introvert, but I am naturally shy, like, like really like awkward. And I always thought just like you, Hannah, I was like, I, I need to be more agreeable, right? Like people don't, if I ask questions, I'll be seen as, you know, disagreeable or a problem or like, I'm going to, I'm going to be like an issue for them. Right. I'm going to be like a problem for them that I can conform and help you like this perfect employee that never asks them anything. It was so stupid. I was like, I so young and naive. That's why I do go on so many rants about how much I love this new young generation that gives zero about anything because I was taken advantage of so much when I was younger and I let it happen because I was like, this is the way that it's supposed to be. And it doesn't have to be that way.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, me too. And you know, not everybody who takes the course and wants to be a bookkeeper ends up owning their own business. So I think it's good to hear the flip side of how to seek out the right, the right option for you when it comes to interviewing. And I think part of nailing an interview is really making sure that you're a good fit with the person that's interviewing you.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And I, I want to circle back to pay rates too. We'll have to talk about that during the next episode, um, about, you know, if you decide that business ownership's not for you and you're going to look for a job, uh, because I've noticed some huge discrepancies in those, uh, you know, pay rates of people basically charging, you know, the, you know, the, uh, bookkeeping, uh, calculator prices as a subcontractor. Um, and we need to talk about how that's, uh, that's not what that's meant to do. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. If you're anybody listening, take our advice. Um, learn from our mistakes. Don't work somewhere that you hate your life because you didn't ask any questions. Um, and I think paying on both, on both ends of the interview, I think paying attention to the actions is one of the most important things you can do. We hope you've enjoyed this little quick episode on interviewing during the hiring process. If you have comments, questions, concerns, or you just want to talk to us, uh, you can shoot us an email at hello at ilovebookkeeping.com. Again, that's hello at ilovebookkeeping.com. We have new episodes out every Tuesday and Thursday available on Apple podcasts, Spotify and Google podcasts for Android. Um, thank you so much for listening. My name is Hannah Robinson and I'm Melissa Honan. And thank you so much for listening to the I Love Bookkeeping podcast.

Speaker 3: I love bookkeeping. Here's a little shout out to all my friends working hard at keeping the books. You want to change your life. You want to grow that business.

Speaker 4: It's not as hard as it looks. Be a money guide, a profit coach, step up your game and see. You'll be working less and making more. And that's the way it's going to be. I, I, I, I, I love it. I love it.