Speaker 1: How can we measure the level of employee's engagement? What measures can we use? Is there an assessment tool? I'll take a stab at this first. I think, and Kinexus supports this, so Greg, maybe you can talk to that, I mean, you know, there's surveys. I think surveys are helpful. I think a key measure of engagement or morale or whatever you call it is the number of ideas that people are bringing forward. If I were to pick one single measure, I guess one would be are people showing up to work So what are your absenteeism rates? What are your turnover rates? Those can be measured more frequently, more real-time than the surveys, but I think another key thing is are people coming forward with ideas and then what percentage of those are being implemented? I think that's, it's easy to measure and I think that's really important.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm going to just focus on the Kinexus side of this because I think Mark is absolutely correct. Turnover rates and absenteeism, there's probably lots of other behavioral things that can be looked at that can measure this, but we have an entire section of our reporting area all about engagements and the type of things that we are reporting on, that's just by the fact that you're using Kinexus, we're able to capture this data at the click of a button and show you. And so our improvement coaches, our customers, the people that are driving kind of the improvement work at the individual organizations use this stuff all the time to figure out, you know, what departments are engaged and what areas and what teams are. Number of OIs, opportunities for improvements, or whatever your organization has labeled those improvements, number of improvements per person annualized and we know that numbers below one are really bad. A lot of organizations do really well with numbers between one and two and really high performing organizations are doing greater than 10 to 15 per year per person and we have organizations that are doing that as well. We have the ability to look at if you've used the system or if you've logged into the system and we know what percent. So those are very easy ways to determine engagement because if you're logging into the system, you're reading about improvement work, if you're using the system, you're engaged in that improvement process. We also can show what percent of your population of your company employees are actually involved in some role in an improvement. And so we obviously like to see the number of people that have no role or no engagement in any improvement or in any project in the system. We like that number to be very close to zero, right? We find in highly engaged organizations that many people are involved in many different improvements or projects and so they'll see their high end users, that percentage will be very high. So lots of different ways to kind of slice and dice that. We know for example also in the system you can really see, oh well this department, this plant is doing 10 OIs per, 10 improvements per person per year, wow they're really engaged. But we can kind of start slicing and dicing that and go, oh well there's actually only a pocket of about 20 people that are representing the activity for 500 people, that's not very engaged. And so in Kinexus we kind of bring all that very easy to be seen and I think those are all kind of critical, if we're talking about engagement in continuous improvement activity and we know obviously the more you engage in continuous improvement activity, the greater the culture you'll have of continuous improvement.

Speaker 1: It becomes a very self-perpetuating cycle. Engagement I think like trust doesn't just exist, it has to be created. You have to work at it, leaders need to work at it. So as we wrap up here, I guess my final point would be if people bemoan a lack of trust, you need to ask what are you doing to build trust? I've heard people complain about a lack of engagement, our doctors aren't engaged, what are you doing to engage your doctors? Don't be passive, it's an active term and once you get that ball rolling then it becomes very self-perpetuating. But at some point we've got to stop the old dysfunctional cycles, again I think that's leadership's responsibility to say okay, enough, we're going to kind of make a clean break, try to work on building a better culture and working together to do so.