Speaker 1: Hey, Steven, how are you doing?

Speaker 2: I'm good, Lucia.

Speaker 1: How are you? I'm good. Thank you very much. What's happening in your side of the world right now?

Speaker 2: Well, you know that I focus on everything that is related to customer experience. And there are a number of challenges today in the world. The bar is up high. Customers are spoiled. We live in a world where we don't have to wait anymore. We're like in this real-time delivery situation. But to deliver upon that for many organizations, that has become a real challenge. It's like a business of scarcity today. There's scarcity in everything. There's not enough supply in many industries, which causes a lot of problems. But there's also a shortage in employees and people that can actually deliver upon the service needs of customers. And this is a big challenge today. So there are like two things happening. A lot of companies realize that they have to invest in technology and high-performance technology to be more efficient in customer experience. And on the other hand, the people who are there need to do the right things, need to make a difference in communication, train their proactive communication skills to anticipate to certain problems, and to make sure at the end of the day that you set the expectation bar at a certain level, but you can still jump above that bar. Communication management is more important than ever. And as a consequence of that all, the war for talent is more crucial than ever. People don't just want to work for any company anymore. You really need to deliver a certain storyline, a certain purpose on top of all the minimum financial demands to make sure that you can still attract people to your company to create a fantastic customer service. So there are like a number of really big challenges that are happening right now.

Speaker 1: This is so similar to what's happening in healthcare, Steven. You know, we all know that there's a shortage of skilled personnel on one end. On the other end, we know that you have this decreasing budgets, a shortage of resources in the broader sense of the world, and people indeed also expecting to have demand on every aspect on healthcare as they wish. Like my neighbor had this treatment, so I want to have that treatment as well. And if we go on in healthcare in the same way that we do right now, by 2030, 35, we will have a doubling in healthcare demand with the same amount of people and maybe even less within the same budget. So that's not something that's going to work. So the things that we need to do in healthcare, and this is very similar to what you say, we have to rethink the way that we deliver healthcare. And in our case, that's not only what we do, but also who does it and where is it going to happen? So healthcare increasingly will need to go out of the institutions like hospitals and other places, and maybe even also into retail situations where we will be able to use great technology that's coming more and more available in other places to have early warning systems and convenience indeed also to the patients.

Speaker 2: How important is the, if I hear you, you know, we're going to have twice as much work, but with the same amount of people, same amount of money. So that's like a huge challenge. Is the whole flip from reactive to proactive healthcare, will that go fast enough? Will that be ready in time to make sure that we can deal with that challenge?

Speaker 1: I think there's a strong resemblance with the climate crisis, Stephen. We all know this is going to happen, but we don't react fast enough. Same is true also in this. Everybody knows for decades that this is going to happen. Give you an example, in the Netherlands, now we got about like six working people to treat one patient in the end of the day, as a metric. By 2035, that will be four for one patient. So it is totally going the other way around and we know that this is happening and some people still think we'll pour some extra money in it, but we don't have the people. We don't have the physicians, we don't have the nurses, we don't have the supportive facility staff to run these kinds of things. So no, it's not going to happen fast. We know that the preventive aspect takes time because this is not a technological exercise. This is on the change of behavior. We all know what good food is. Still, it's too much expensive. So you now see, for instance, also in supermarkets, it's kind of been caught by surprise by how vegetarian food has become a thing within four years. Now they see also the demand on the preventional aspect for healthcare and stepping into that. So that will be drugstores, that will be supermarkets, that will be IT companies happening in that. But no, it will not happen fast. I'm from the Netherlands, Limburg, Catholic, the born, not practicing anymore, like I had five pre-names. And still I think that those seven biblical years are always in the mix when something needs to change in healthcare. So it's not going to change fast. However, if the companies that you work with, not only from a technological perspective, but also want to bring convenience to their clientele and act in this and take also their corporate responsibility, because it's not only about patients, it's also about your employee staff. So I now see mid corporate and above changing employee benefit programs in the health realm. That's way more than just delivering an apple or other fruits or giving you a gym package. It really is changing the mix, as you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but I see that evolution happening. I mean, a couple of years ago, I think just before COVID, I wrote this article saying every organization will become a healthcare organization. It's not just health. Making sure people are healthy is not the responsibility of the healthcare industry. It's everyone's. And the opportunities that companies like Amazon or Walmart or any company have today is to put in their weight to make a difference. And on top of that, I think a number of these companies really understand the benefit for them financially. I mean, if you have healthier employees, you will have better financial results. Plus, and this is what we've seen with Amazon, they start with this healthcare program internally. It works so well that they decide to make a business out of it. And then it even brings in more money. So a lot of these organizations really start to understand the value of investing in healthcare, both internally and sometimes externally. And that could really create a change in the healthcare industry. There's more money there. There's more innovation power very often in those organizations. So I wonder how you look at that evolution, Lucien.

Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting that you name Amazon, which is a company that I follow for almost a decade in that. And interesting enough, the example that you just mentioned, AmazonCare, Amazon decided to stop it. And that's not because they think it's a failure. It's about they're pouring in $12 billion to buy one medical. And interesting to see is that people start emailing me, saying, see, well, Amazon can't fix it either. You don't get the message over there. So that's what's happening. Now they are taking their responsibility. They're creating a business out of that. They know convenience. They know logistics. They know AI to predict what's happening in there. So that's one of the things that's happening. And Amazon is one and Walmart is another. And there's a couple of other.

Speaker 2: Lucien, can I just interrupt for a second? Can you explain in detail what Amazon's plan exactly is in healthcare at this moment? What company did they buy and what do you see is going to happen there?

Speaker 1: Well, maybe it's better to pick a bit of the picture what's happening over the course of the past years. Amazon has tried a couple of things in health and healthcare. They're finding out their ways. They look behind the curtains, try to figure out what worked, what doesn't work. And as Amazon is doing for all of their existence, at one point they make a choice to either proceed for it, to pivot it. And that's exactly what they're doing. So now they're heading for One Medical, which is a primary care company, a huge one, to make sure that they can deliver primary care. That's where the preventional aspect comes in. And that's also where the combination of delivering food, like Whole Foods and other also brands that they own, really kicks in. What you clearly can see is that they are not going for that niche market. They are going for the masses. That's exactly what they do. When they buy One Medical and tailor that also in their proposition that now Amazon care at, they're able to deliver healthcare and health for almost every company in the US. And I'm sure that they also will take the step into the next one, which will be in Europe. And we see early signs of that already. The thing is that when I look at healthcare, Stephen, from a patient perspective, I'm a patient every now and then myself. I think healthcare for 80% is blunt logistics, Stephen. Has nothing to do with medicine at all. It's about convenience. It's about logistics. It's about the right data and stuff like that. So why is it that every process in healthcare is being medicalized? And that's exactly what Amazon is trying to unbundle to say, so what is medical? What's not? How could we combine that into it? Let's be honest. If you have a prescription from your GP the first time, you need to go to the pharmacist and they need to explain what the side effects are and this and that. But once you're 10 years living with that condition already, there's no need anymore to go back to. That could easily been done in an Amazon shop or at Ahol de Lezes or whatever kind of company. So I really think that that's the thing that we are going to see for the next five to 10 years. Retail stepping into this void because I think it's a void and combined with what's happening also geographically, let's be honest, the supermarket is the last bastion in the neighborhood. The bank has gone, the ATM is in the supermarket, the post office is gone, the service counter for sending and receiving your packages is in the supermarket and I really think that next up is also with all kinds of technology to bring that into retail surroundings, might be supermarkets, drugstores and others. I also work at a regional hospital in Roermond where we've created this self-measurement kiosk where you could put your arm in and it'll take your blood pressure, it takes your oxygenation level, your weight and everything else. It looks a bit like a Santa Claus kind of chair, a big chair. Now sitting in the outpatient clinic, but very soon it will show up in retail surroundings where people can do that themselves and the data gets right into the electronical medical records of the hospital. So no need for the people living in rural area to go back to the hospital every two weeks. So I think that's happening on the pharmacy side of it, the pharmacists on the preventional aspect in it and on the convenience slash logistics. I think a lot of that is happening at the East Coast in the US, right, where these things really are happening, don't you think?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. So is your advice then to people in the healthcare world that they should find inspiration from what's happening in the retail world and see if we can blend that, the knowledge from the two?

Speaker 1: Is that your advice? That's exactly one of the things that I'm trying to push forward and not only to think about that, but also to talk about that with their colleagues and their peers because this is not something for only one company. This is a massive change that indeed will take a couple of years and some things are happening in the US. Not everything from the US is perfect and is okay to bring to Europe, but we also know and you and I as well is that things that we've seen happening four or five years ago, now all of a sudden just show up in Europe and I think this transformation is going way faster. Yeah, I agree. Yes, and that's also why I'm very thrilled that the two of us will head over to the East Coast next year in May 2023 to bring a bunch of people, not only to show and tell, but also to have them convene together how this might play out in their part of healthcare or in their part of retail. So a perfect blend, I hope, of people from retail and healthcare.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to that. And I agree, in the US we've seen a lot of things happening earlier. Even small things. My sister-in-law is a pharmacist here in Belgium and I remember 10 years ago we had that discussion saying if you go to the US you can find all these products in supermarkets and the pharmacists in the US are basically supermarkets, there's hardly any difference. And they felt that really hard to believe, but I mean if you look at today what you can buy in the supermarket here in Belgium and in the Netherlands, we're very close to that point and now they're moving further. You have doctors, GPs, pharmacies in every store in the US and you have the technology to support that. So I'm super excited that we're going to see that in real life and I really hope people get excited to join us, as you said, both from the retail world and from the healthcare world. We want to blend that. And you know we have done many of these inspiration tours, learning expeditions we also call them. And the energy you get from that on top of the insights, just make sure if people join with us when they come home, they will feel the energy, they will have the belief that this is the way forward. And I think that's what we can offer. Give the belief, give concrete actions, show and tell, as you said, to really experience what is happening and what the future may look like. So I hope that a lot of our friends in both of our industries will join us on this amazing tour.

Speaker 1: And to build on that, I think the other part that really brings into the mix is also that you are able to discuss that with others that have the same question. So it's not only that I can see these things, but also the hashtag how to. I've brought like 500 people into the US already, also with these kinds of events and trips. And I always thought that that's the big benefit. Yes, it's great to see things happening over there, but everything that's happening in between in the bus, at the dinner, at the hotel bar, let's be honest. That's where these things start to work in your mind and to find a model to get these things in the end of the day up and running. And then you've got the next challenge is how to convince your colleagues.

Speaker 2: But that's a different topic. That's a different one. And we'll help people with that.

Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Steven. Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to that. And I hope that we are able to create this perfect blend of those two worlds of people also trying to figure out and are open to explore what this really means in the end.

Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. Me too. So thanks for this conversation. Having talked to you today again, I can't wait to do this partnership together and explore the future of retail and healthcare. Thanks for being here. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 2: Stay safe. Bye bye. Bye.