Speaker 1: Film Courage Can you take us through the process of how you pitched ABC?

Speaker 2: Andrew Yes, this is a question I get asked a lot. TV projects are very different than film. You don't have to have a pilot. Let me rephrase that. You have to write out a pilot if you don't have a history of writing. Like if you don't have a track record and haven't sold anything. Now if you have, you don't have to write a pilot, you have to write a pitch. But for most people who are coming up, you have to actually write the pilot for the show. Now what you do is you write a pilot for a TV show, whether it's 30 pages, 60 pages, you write that pilot episode and then you write a TV pitch. Now the pitch is only, would be a verbal pitch you would pitch which is only 10 minutes long. And all you cover is what the show is about, the characters, the beats in the pilot and where it's going the next few seasons. You don't need to write like a 50 page bible. That's not what they want to hear. TV pitches, you're only supposed to pitch from 8-10 minutes in a room and that's it. Now they will ask you a bunch of questions afterwards if they're interested but you don't need to like do work. I see these people who write these 50 page bibles and do all this work and you don't have to do it. That's not how you get a TV show sold. A TV show, all you need is like I said the proper pitch which is a format which is just simply about the show, the characters, a few beats in the pilot, where season one is going and a few beats for season two. That's all they care about. They care about the characters more than anything and what the show is about because you've got to live with those characters for years. And you have to have a pilot. Now more likely if you sell it they're going to make you rewrite the whole pilot anyway. But you have to show to the execs that are buying things that you can perform and write it. That's why if you don't have a track record you have to have a pitch and a pilot. But if you do have a track record you don't necessarily have to write a pilot and they don't even want you to nowadays because they want to be involved in every step of writing the pilot.

Speaker 1: Film Courage So not only having great characters but characters that can actually grow and go somewhere? Are you factoring any of that into this 8-minute pitch or no? That's for them to decide can we go anywhere with this character?

Speaker 2: No, that goes in your pitch and when you cover season one and you talk about where the show is going like let's say it's 10 episodes, you don't go episode by episode, you just say kind of start of season one, middle of season one, end of season one. But a lot of what you're talking about is where the relationships go. Like if character A becomes involved with character B and then character C is upset about that. So it's not so much plotty as opposed to where the characters fall into the storyline and how they change and adjust because it's like being married with these characters. If you have a show and you're going to do 50 episodes people have to have a reason to keep coming back to these characters. So they have to grow and change and things have to happen to them.

Speaker 1: Film Courage Is there a certain time of year when you can pitch networks?

Speaker 2: Yes. Let me rephrase that. Not so much anymore. It used to be you would pitch like in I think it was July through September because then they would be starting to set up for the next season. But now with streamers and all that it's kind of year-round, they'll take pitches anytime. It's only really in regards to ABC, CBS, NBC like the big networks. They still stay more on a schedule because they still like to have a lot of shows come out in September, October, that kind of time frame that they've been doing for decades. But nowadays not so much. Now they'll listen to pitches almost any time of the year. So it's kind of the streamers have changed all that. There's no real season to anything.

Speaker 1: Film Courage What are the steps to pitching a TV show?

Speaker 2: A lot. Well first of all you've got to get a great pitch together and usually you have a producer you're working with who's taking you into the networks or a company. Like when we sold our show to ABC we had first set it up at Lionsgate. So we went in to ABC, NBC, we went to every network in one week. They make you do it almost like consecutively so that if one person is interested someone else will also come aboard and they'll get them playing against each other. So you almost go like you'll get a pitch grid that's like 24 pitches in like four days and you just go place to place to place to do the same thing but you bring your producers in and the real work is working with your producers on the pitch because we were very lucky that the Lionsgate execs had sold a lot of shows and they were really awesome people and they made us do it with them, work it over and work it out and had us literally time us. It's like okay you've only got eight minutes go and you do the pitch, they give you notes, you rework it, you rewrite it and you do it again and again and they're the final decision makers about what the pitch is going to be like because they're the sellers really even though you wrote the show.

Speaker 1: Film Courage So you know that there's going to be back-to-back…this is pitch week and so you plan out your whole sort of life schedule around that and wardrobe and coming in with this producer. How stressful is that to know you're going to be on even though writers sort of don't

Speaker 2: want that? Yeah, very stressful. You just have to do it. You just do it. I mean a pitch gets easier and easier the more you do it. So the first one or two might be a little clunky but the whole process is to really give them what the show is about. TV moves super fast, faster than film, you give them what the show is about and then you try to get it after eight minutes into conversation, get it conversational where hopefully they ask you a bunch of questions and you talk more about the show but you only talk at them for like a good eight minutes.

Speaker 1: Film Courage Can you talk about the Bible versus the pitch versus writing a pilot?

Speaker 2: Yes. Well the pilot is a pilot whether it's a 30-page pilot, 60-page pilot which you have. The pitch is like maybe a six or seven-page document, maybe even less that you verbally will read to them in the room, you usually don't leave it behind because I mean with COVID it's a little bit different but they've been doing it on Zoom. You leave the pitch, you do the pitch but you don't leave it behind. Now a Bible doesn't get created until the show has been ordered so a lot of people get mixed up on these. The Bible is like the Bible that explains the characters, the show so it creates continuity through the writer's room and from episode to episode. So a lot of people will be interested in creating a Bible, it's an unnecessary step. You don't do that until later in the process. There's only two things you need, a pilot and a pitch if you're a new kind of screenwriter wanting to sell a TV show.

Speaker 1: So don't worry about how do you make the Bible because we see that once it's greenlit or once it's getting close to being told yes…

Speaker 2: Yeah, you're putting the cart before the horse, it doesn't need to be done and most times too if they like your pilot more than likely…I mean sometimes they'll be like this is great, let's shoot this. But more than likely they're going to want you to rewrite the entire pilot with their input. Like there's something they really dig, they like it but they're going to want to do it more their way and if it's a big network or TNT or AMC, they know what they want. So they're going to be like this is great but let's do it this way.

Speaker 1: Film Courage How much time did you spend writing on the

Speaker 2: pitch? It took several passes at it so maybe it was like about a month, I mean not a month full time but you know you kind of work on it, send it over, work on it, send it over, practice it a couple of times, do it and just get everybody's input. So we were very lucky like I said we had Lionsgate involved which there were several execs so they would all hear it and they would put in their two cents or say Justice changed that, that's great. So yeah, it's like a sales process, it's a creative process but it's also like selling something so that's a little bit different of a mindset.

Speaker 1: So you know you have those eight minutes but then what about the talking points that are more conversational afterwards? Are you preparing…if they ask me this then I'm going to say that?

Speaker 2: Yes. We would always write down some talking points just to have them as additional things but usually they would ask enough questions that it would get conversational and you would encourage it and try to talk about it. And also we brought in a few visual presentation things too like boards that had kind of the world and some character stuff. So we realized really quickly that if you bring those in it's kind of uncomfortable for if you're pitching to five or six execs for them to just stare at you the whole time for them. So if you have like tone boards and things they can look away and I think it makes it more relaxing for them too because it's a very unnatural thing for you just to be talking at somebody and them just looking at you the whole time. So and the tone boards made it more conversational. But yeah, we actually after one or two of those started writing out talking points that kept coming up and things to add on top of the pitch that were like more conversational.

Speaker 1: So by the 23rd pitch you had it down so well that you were like why didn't I do it this way to start out? Yeah, a little bit.

Speaker 2: You get really good at it by the time you're done.

Speaker 1: What other materials are needed to pitch a network show?

Speaker 2: It depends. I've heard some TV execs say like thank God you didn't bring in a visual presentation you know with the monitors and all this stuff because they've seen so many of those. So I don't think it's really necessary because these are smart executives. If you're pitching to a TV exec at Netflix or somewhere they know how TV works and they know if it's a show. So it helps, it depends if you're world building then maybe it might help a little bit more but if it's like a drama in the Midwest they get it. You don't have to show them this is what Uncle Charlie looks like and they know. So you don't really need to bring much but you have to have just a really solid quick pitch and back it up and be able to answer any questions they have too. And the weird thing is sometimes they don't ask anything and they're the ones who buy it. Sometimes they'll ask a million questions and you're like oh that went great and then they pass. So that's pretty much what you've got to do is just follow what you think is best for that certain type of show. Obviously if it was something based on IP you would bring in the IP, if it was a comic book you would bring in big blow-ups of the comic book and go these are our characters but if it's a small intimate thing I don't think you'd need to do that.

Speaker 1: Film Courage How many times have you pitched a TV show?

Speaker 2: Pitched several. That one sold a couple, sometimes they don't sell and for various reasons like maybe somebody else just announced a show that was very similar. So that happens as well. And pitched a couple where we got hired to write pilots but they never got on air. So probably like five or six times and two or three of them sold. But it's becoming more and more really competitive as of late because now everyone is on TV. A couple years ago it was a little bit easier, now they want you to bring a whole package in. To pitch a TV show right now you kind of need to bring in a director of the pilot, the showrunner, the producers who they want big producers to kind of get it going. So it's become much more competitive than it was a couple years ago.

Speaker 1: Film Courage Can you talk about how you actually got in the room? Did you know someone that brought you in?

Speaker 2: I was fortunate enough that I was with Paradigm Agency at the time and had an amazing TV agent Rich Rogers and he did it all. He just said look I love this pilot, you guys are going to sell it and let's go to production companies first. So we did that. We went to six or seven production companies, Lionsgate paid us and bought the project and then became our producers and then we went out. And then Lionsgate sets you up with the networks. So it's a two-step process. First your agent will get you with producers, if the producers latch on then the producers take it over from there and then they will set everything up for you and take it out and they make all the meetings and they have a track record usually with these networks and have other shows on the air with them. So it's a two-step process.

Speaker 1: So they want repped writers, you're not just meeting somebody at a coffee shop and hey you know what? I want to bring you in.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think TV is a little bit harder than features to get in with. Features you can get in I think a little bit easier to meet producers and talk. TV is a little bit tougher without an agency but it depends on what you're trying to do. If you're a screenwriter and you want to work in TV are you trying to sell a show or are you trying to become a staff writer? Staff writer is a lot easier. Selling a show is a big you've got to put all these pieces together and have all this stuff thought out. Now if you write a good spec pilot and you want to get on a TV show you can maybe find an agent to send it out to people or meet people or work in a writer's room like I said before and being a writer's assistant and get on a staff. That's a lot easier than selling a show. Selling a show is you're the creator and that's your show.

Speaker 1: Film Courage So people now are bringing in teams you said? So showrunners, directors?

Speaker 2: Yeah, they want to package everything and even sometimes actors.

Speaker 1: And they would all come in, not barring COVID not being around, but they would all come in previously as a group.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which that's a hard package to turn down when you know J.J. Abrams walks in with his whole crew and you know so but that's the that's the advantage to hooking up your pilot or your project with a big production company. You know they can do that. They can go get you know showrunners, they can go get those people. So TV has become very competitive as of late you know and it wasn't always it seems like but you know it's become TV has become a beast you know last few years. So it's really great people making TV. So that's another question you have to ask yourself is like look who I'm competing against you know. So it might be better for somebody starting out to really write a spec pilot and try to get in a writer's room and try that should be your goal is like how do I get on a staff and write you know for two, three years, make a living at it and then make those connections, get the agent, then you can write your own you know project and get it out there.

Speaker 1: Film Courage The bigger a production budget the more problems?

Speaker 2: No I've seen that I have found that you have the same problems on a million dollar movie that you do on a ten million dollar movie and I know people who have produced hundred million dollar movies that said they're the same problems on a million dollar movie on a hundred million dollar movie. It's always time, money, actors, producers, screenplay, it's the exact same problem just more is at stake.

Speaker 1: Film Courage Is the stress level higher because more is at stake?

Speaker 2: I would think so. I've never produced a hundred million dollar movie but I get stressed out producing just a million dollar movie so I would think so.

Speaker 1: Film Courage But across the board you've heard from others that it's the same, does it matter?

Speaker 2: Same problems you know just the pay is a lot less if you're doing a million dollar film versus a hundred million dollar film. So yeah, I've heard people say it's the exact same problems.