Speaker 1: Diversity, equity, and inclusion programs around the country are ending. And from universities to workplaces, many Americans are not feeling this, according to the Washington Post. Sixty-one percent of people, though, consider these programs a good thing for companies. Thirty-four percent say it's a bad thing. Joining us now is Mark Esley, the founder of the Lee Group Innovation. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. So, Mark, we know these programs were put in place for a reason. Now we're seeing these companies backtrack. What are your thoughts there?

Speaker 2: Well, let's go back four years. George Floyd, obviously, stimulated a lot of conversation. And right after that whole situation with George Floyd, who obviously was murdered, companies felt a need to really step up. And there was a lot of talk, if you will. And then we found more and more dollars being thrown behind these DEI programs. And people were getting hired. In fact, I think the hiring increased about 68 to 70 percent over a 12-month period after his death. So the momentum was there. But what's happened is, here we are in 2024, the momentum has slowed down. And I think some of it is for a couple of reasons. One is that people are not seeing the business results as promised when they first launched these programs four years ago. Number two is that some people thought the organizations were simply providing lip service and not necessarily putting resources behind these types of programs. Number three is we found we are knowing that a lot of people in that profession are leaving those positions because they don't have the financial resources. And number four, we are in a political season. This is not a political conversation. But we are now obviously in the height of election season. And some of the conversation has become politicized as well.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, that is an important part of the conversation. You know, we just had former President Donald Trump here speaking specifically at a black church. So what kind of role does that play in this conversation and with these programs?

Speaker 2: I understand what he's doing, right? And he's trying to reach out certainly to expand his demographic base, his voter base. It's all about optics. And I think there are a lot of people who took that situation the wrong – not the wrong way. The optics were not good because he went to a black church in Detroit, but the predominance of the audience was predominantly white. And he's reaching out to black voters. The optics were not good because there was a gap there. You look at the actual photographs of what he was trying to do. So was that conversation good for DEI? I think it actually defeated what the purpose of DEI was because it came across as if people were being pandered to. And DEI programs is not to pander to people. DEI programs is simply an opportunity to bring people to the table, right, to provide fair and equitable opportunities for them to certainly earn more money, to make a difference in the community. And not necessarily DEI programs are not for anybody to be pandered to, but it's an opportunity to level the playing field.

Speaker 1: And, Mark, you mentioned the George Floyd situation and how that started a lot of these conversations about the need there. It also led to a lot of anger for some people and a call for change. Why did we have to have these conversations in the first place? What were the workplaces looking like before those conversations started?

Speaker 2: Yeah, the workplaces were more homogeneous. One would argue that, yeah, Mark, that's not necessarily true. You look at the statistical data. The workplace was less diverse four, five, ten years ago. And one can argue, is it more diverse today than it was four years ago? Statistically, I saw some stats today. In fact, there is more diversity in the workplace than there was four or five years ago. The issue, again, is that people want immediate results. And since people are not necessarily seeing the immediate business results, people are saying to raise their hand, see, it's not working. So therefore, since it's not working, let's pull back and let's reallocate those resources elsewhere. That is not how you measure the impact. You have to measure something over a period of time. And then you can't twist the data in such a way that says, see, this program is not working. And then what's happening, too, is that people who are saying it's not working, they're saying my position is being taken by someone who's less qualified. And that, in fact, is not necessarily true either. That's why I say the whole conversation is becoming convoluted, and people who are focused on DEI need to focus on the specifics, focus on the measurable results, and focus on the potential impact it can have moving forward.

Speaker 1: Is it kind of like some of the hype is dying down, and that could be also influencing some of these companies to say,

Speaker 2: I don't need to be part of this right now? I don't know if the hype has died down, but some of the momentum has died down. And what we're seeing, Terrence, quite frankly, is we're seeing this whole political atmosphere, this undercharged atmosphere where people are politicizing this issue, this opportunity, as I call it, DEI. So as a result of that, they're pushing back, and by pushing back, that momentum that was there 4 years ago is certainly not what it was 4 years ago. It's kind of subsided a little bit. However, quickly, businesses will tell you, if you talk to certain businesses, they will say they've had an improvement in their DEI efforts over the last 4 years.

Speaker 1: So as a business expert, what would you recommend that some of these companies do moving forward?

Speaker 2: Businesses need to engage the employees. Don't listen to the hype. Have a plan that's focused on DEI efforts. Make sure you're sitting down with your employees, engaging them. Engage with the community as well. Make your employees aware and let them know the importance of DEI programs and why it's beneficial for the organization at large.

Speaker 1: All right, Mark Lee, a brilliant man. Thank you for being here. We appreciate it. Thank you.