Speaker 1: Film Courage, Can you take us through your editing process? Let's say I'm a director and I come to you. What's the first step?

Speaker 2: The first step, depending on how far we are through production, even not, but is to watch. It's just to watch all the footage and usually I want the director to go away, like let me watch without, don't give me anything yet, I don't want to know, just like let me watch the footage and that part of the process for me is like very sacred. It's like I'm the first audience and so I'm looking for things that bump me, that inspire me, that make me think or I'm looking for things that I can take and then polish off for the second audience which is the true audience, the larger audience. And so for me as an editor, occupying that seat of the first audience is like I need that time with the footage to watch down, to understand what we have, to start to understand the characters, to form my own opinions about these people, about the story. About how I can see this unfolding, I just need that time with the footage. And then after that I like to pull in the director and we can have like a very fruitful and engaging conversation of like where are you, what do you see? This character, this moment, this story, how do you see it evolving? How do I see it? And we can start to have this like dialogue, this back and forth. The director has been with it for a lot longer at this point than I have and sometimes they'll come to me and they're like 50 percent through production, zero percent, 100 percent. It's kind of all over the spectrum. And so zero percent is different than 50 but with whatever footage is there, it's like I need to form my own opinion, have a conversation with the director, what's your opinion and now we can start to collaborate and actually put scenes on the timeline.

Speaker 1: Film Courage, Let's suppose I'm more of a control type person controlling and I want to sit in the edit bay with you on the first pass. No, it's almost like a backseat driver. It's better to have you sort of be there and soak it in with your own eyes without me telling you the reference of this scene or that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And for me, I don't do well with controlling directors and I usually do not work with them and I will try and not work with them. And that's from especially documentary, like documentary is the editor's medium. There's kind of no way around it. I mean, you know, the assembly and the building of the story and in collaboration, obviously very close collaboration with the director. But there is that. I feel like the editor's medium. Yeah, definitely. The editor's role is elevated in documentary that's a little bit differentiated from scripted necessarily because you're kind of coming up with the script together, sometimes an actual script and writing out, but sometimes just in outlines. How do we want this to feel? And then I can get in there and like start to craft the emotion, craft the tone, the pace, the music, the sound, the cuts, all of the things to kind of create a thing for the director to respond to and then the director can kind of ebb and flow and nudge it down the path and we can build it together. And so for me, I need a very collaborative director. Because I want to bring everything that I can bring to a project, everything that they can bring to a project. And I mean, I believe in any good documentary or film or art is that always one plus one should be three, never two. Like the thing should be greater than the sum of its parts. Like I don't know what this is. You don't know what this is, high level, theoretically. But let's like walk down the path and discover what the film is together. And so, you know, the process for a director and potentially a screenwriter. A super controlling director. For me, great documentary is coming to the process with a question rather than the answer. Like I know what this film is. That's very hard to make a documentary with that kind of disposition. So for me, it's like this is what I think it is but there's something in the footage that's much more than I thought we would capture. That's a more exciting starting point.

Speaker 1: Film Courage, Right. Because there's that cliché sort of there's the film you shoot and then the film kind of tells you what it is.

Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to say. Yes, totally. And I feel like for me, once I'm cutting. I feel like I'm just pulling a thread and it's unraveling and it's telling me what it wants to be. So I feel like a lot of times I, we with the director discover the film rather than create the film. It's like the Michelangelo with David is already in the block of marble. Just chip away everything that's not David to arrive at what is David. I feel like that's a documentary. A huge amount of footage and you just chip away at what is not the film to arrive at what is the film. And so…but I always like having that kind of question of like of discovery and trying to identify and catch the film if you will.

Speaker 1: Film Courage, But even with narrative you also have the same process, right?

Speaker 2: Yes, totally.

Speaker 1: Film Courage, So the editor needs to…they don't need to be telling you well in this scene I just want you to know that she really meant that. No, no, no. I need to be alone with it.

Speaker 2: Yes, totally. And I think there comes a point…like I try and keep my directors at as high of a level as I can from like a story standpoint. Like be head in the clouds director. Like tell me everything, your hopes, dreams and desires and like let me work in the weeds. Film Courage, Yeah. Like over time as the film starts to come together the director can descend and then come into the weeds. And you definitely get to a point where it's like I feel like we should trim two frames there. You know, it gets to that point but it's like you don't want to let…as an editor you don't want to let it get to that point too soon because you've kind of lost control of the thing. You've kind of let go of the process and all of a sudden the process is getting in way of the product. Like this is the first pass of a scene. Like we shouldn't be talking about frame trims quite yet. Like let's stay high level, let's get the clay on the table so then we can start, you know. I feel like it is, it's like putting clay on the table, getting the rough structure of the, you know, of the bust or the head or whatever you're making and then you slowly continue to work in more and more detail. You know, you don't want to just take it and just like get in details really quick because it's going to change. And so it's kind of a refining, honing process from like an amorphous glob of clay to a beautifully refined sculpture. Film Courage, Sure.

Speaker 1: And sometimes the rough cut, the first pass is…maybe not. Maybe painful for some people to watch and their hopes can be dashed but with time it can be…

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And I like to send out, you know, 15-ish minute chunks. Like I definitely don't go away and cut a whole feature and be like, here's the first pass. So it's a little more, I like to break it up, like to understand the goals and the textures and the tenors and then put together three, five, ten minutes as a first send. How are we feeling? This is good but I thought it would be blah, blah, blah. We can kind of get into those. And then all of a sudden, okay, let me go away and cut 15 minutes. So you have enough that there's a context of the footage, there's a context of the beats and the moments and you can see transitions and start to see kind of a meta pace that the thing is taking. It's not like one-minute chunks because it's like we shouldn't be reviewing one-minute chunks of this. So it's kind of, I like those longer chunks and then we kind of leapfrog because the learnings of the previous 15 minutes will roll into the next 15 minutes and we can kind of modify our process and structure along the way. So once we get to a first assembly, I always call it assemblies because directors freak out when you call it rough cuts. I'm like, no, this is a rough assembly and they're like, oh, okay, we're not to rough cut yet. And then all of a sudden, we're at fine cut and they're like, what happened? I'm like, gotcha. So kind of building in these 15-minute chunks I find to be super helpful from a review standpoint, from the director, but also from the editor standpoint because you can constantly gut check along the way. You're like, is this the film we want to make? Is this the film we want to discover? So I like to break it up. I like to break it up a little bit more. I've never gone away and done a full pass of anything.

Speaker 1: Film Courage, How do you know a certain piece of footage is going to be in the edit no matter what?

Speaker 2: The screen just starts vibrating and you're just like, that's a movie. What is happening is I can't believe we have this or I can't believe this happened. There's just this moment as you're watching the footage where as the first audience I can see something. I know the pieces. I know the scenes that I can construct to make that moment really impactful and meaningful. And you can start to kind of like plot those in your mind on a timeline like when we want to roll out this information to make this moment the most powerful version of this moment. And some of those scenes they won't make it because you're kind of constructing a little bit more, which you have to. But then there's some scenes that are just so powerful in and of their container. This is a super powerful moment and you almost don't even need to do anything to communicate how powerful this moment is. And that could be comedically or sad, I mean that could be any powerful moment. It's just like this is going to stay. I know this will make the final piece. And there's been some assemblies that I've made where it's like the first pass at a scene is the thing that was in the lockup. Like we're not going to touch anything. Just leave it. It's there. And so I just feel like you can feel the screen vibrate when you're watching it. It's like this is going to be in the film no matter what.

Speaker 1: Film Courage What if a director is going to be in the film? What if a director demands that a beautiful shot be in the film but you don't think it should be in the movie?

Speaker 2: At some point you concede. At some point you have to concede. But for me I need to hear a very strong…if I feel very strongly that it shouldn't be because it's detracting from the narrative, it's detracting from the flow, it's detracting from some kind of fabric that the film is landing in. I need to hear an equally or greater compelling argument for this shot to be in the film. Brisson says not beautiful shots but functional shots. Like every shot should be functional first and then beautiful second. So if you give me nothing but beautiful footage that's great and there will be a lot of beautiful shots. But if we're constructing a film, if we're constructing a narrative, if we're constructing an experience for the audience, like beauty plays a role but it's not the primary role. And so you know…if I think a beautiful shot should not be in the film, I'm not going to be in the film. I'm going to be in the film. If it does not be in there and I have some decent reasons, you should come at me with better reasons why it should be in the film. And just because it's a beautiful shot doesn't work for me.

Speaker 1: Film Courage, So it has to lend to the story or the information in the documentary, whatever it is. Even a music video. If it's just a beautiful girl or guy, does it lend to…

Speaker 2: I mean some genres of…like music videos or something like that. Some genres lend themselves to just arbitrary random images and it just looks cool and you know… Okay, fine, it's a music video. But if we're trying to tell a powerful story, it's got to be functional first. It has to push the narrative forward. If it doesn't push the narrative forward, then why is it even here? And so for me, every shot needs to have those…it needs to have energy in and of itself from a narrative standpoint first and then a visual standpoint second.

Speaker 1: Film Courage, I see you as an artist. I see how you put beautiful timelines…it's like an art. Yeah, I love timelines.

Speaker 2: I think it just shows how much thought and intention and how much little roads…I did this…nope, it didn't work. But I keep it on a timeline because it might work later. So the timelines can get pretty gnarly but it just shows all of the little rabbit trails that led to the film and how many decisions…just micro decisions along the way. Film Courage, How did you decide to make this film? How did you decide to make this film?