Speaker 1: so let's talk about strategy number two because this strategy is difficult this is really how

Speaker 2: you win in family court in my opinion this is the pathway to victory right and and this is difficult

Speaker 1: to do but if you can do it where nobody else can then you win or where nobody else will then you win and this is the strategy that thomas and i have uh really used in both of our cases in hundreds of, I mean, we have just seen this work over and over and over and over again. And the weird thing to me is most attorneys won't give you the strategy. The strategy that we see almost everyone use, or at least everyone that is in a high conflict situation and if you're litigating your case in court you're you're probably a high conflict situation most people that aren't high conflict are you know using alternative means like mediation and different things and so at least one of the parties is high conflict if you're you know if you're in a court process

Speaker 2: but well really it's one strategy that you think is gonna work but won't work and the other one is the one that you think won't work and it probably will

Speaker 1: All right, so let's explain that because this all sounds very confusing so far. So what everybody does is they want to tear down the other party. And you know, Thomas and I have taken in, he's taken in a few new cases in his practice the last few weeks. And whenever you get new cases in, it's like, this is something that you're trying to, you know, instill into your clients as sort of the strategy of how you're, you know, how you handle things and different, different attorneys approach it differently.

Speaker 2: And how you make a record and.

Speaker 1: Right. So everybody wants to tear the other person down or particularly the other parent down in cases that involve custody and visitation issues and all that.

Speaker 2: Right. And I get these cases all the time. They're usually cases that are post-judgment cases.

Speaker 1: Right. And the fight is continuing.

Speaker 2: And everything's continuing. And the client comes to me and says, I want to say about my attorney because I'm not getting the results I want. And I go, fine, we'll see about your old attorney. And they come in for the initial interview and all what they're doing is, well, I don't understand why I'm not getting more parenting time or why my support's off the hook or why I'm not prevailing because I've pointed out everything that's wrong with my ex.

Speaker 1: All the mistakes she's making, he's making, whatever.

Speaker 2: And nobody's listening to me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the judge won't listen, the judge won't let me talk.

Speaker 2: Right, the family court service person won't listen, my therapist won't even listen to me. And so. Sometimes that's true. As my attorney, I want you to make these people understand finally what's really going on here.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is something I think that is true in a lot of cases is people have this concept they just have the right attorney, that everything will magically fall into place. And honestly, you know, we've said this over and over your cases, won and lost vast percentage of the issue is how you behave, not what attorney you have, not what the other parent does not, you know, it's how you personally behave. And so we go into this and we think, we think that if we prove the other person's a bad person, we're going to win. here's the problem. Proving the other person is a bad person or a bad parent or did something wrong doesn't mean that you're doing something right. That one

Speaker 2: does not equal the other. So a perfect example is of the teardown strategy, which is the first one. This is the bad, this is the to not to. To not to, this is what to not to do.

Speaker 1: You're talking to your three-year-old, this is what to not do. Yeah that's, yes.

Speaker 2: why are we talking to our clients like they're three-year-olds. Because when we're going through divorce we're all three-year-olds. Right. And every once

Speaker 1: in a while we throw a tantrum. Right, I was getting ready to say we're all throwing tantrums. Yeah. I did it too.

Speaker 2: But here's the thing. The court says, oh goodness we have a high conflict case here. I'm gonna order that the parties use talking parents. And from now on everything you say is going to be preserved on the internet and if you want to bring it to the attention of the court you can print it out and launch it with the court. Oh great. So here's what everybody does. They write these long emails or communications I guess for a better word on the threads and what

Speaker 1: they're trying to do is make a record. They're trying to document their case.

Speaker 2: yes I know that last week you were late three times for the exchange but still out of the goodness of my heart I am willing to give you a rescheduling of tomorrow's visit because because I'm such a wonderful cooperative co-parent It's about time that you get on this train and be a cooperative co-parent too.

Speaker 1: Right, right. It is something, I mean, you're exaggerating a little, but yeah, that's what it looks like. I mean, and how many threads have we looked at out of these kinds of parenting apps? Tons of them. And people are trying to use them to document. And one of the things I try to explain is you giving testimony in court, whether that's writing a declaration or whether that's saying it on the stand or whatever form that comes in, depending on how your court process goes, that does, documenting it in your talking parents or Our Family Wizard or whatever doesn't make it any more.

Speaker 2: More true.

Speaker 1: True or viable or reliable evidence for the court than you saying it in a declaration or on the stand. And if you're putting it in that app, you're probably inflaming your communication. this tendency to want to tear the other party down is, you know, partly comes from, you know, let's face it, we've gone through a breakup with this person and we're probably angry over a lot of different things. And we probably do feel like they're a horrible, awful human being a lot of times at this stage of the game. Yeah. You know, but the problem is exactly what I said before.

Speaker 2: Your ex is a horrible human.

Speaker 1: The problem is what I said before, is that person looking bad, doesn't make you look good, you know?

Speaker 2: Right, I think you need to step back and think, what is the court looking for in this 10 to 20 minutes of time that you get to present your case? What are they looking for? The one thing they're really looking for is which parent is willing to cooperate. They want you to cooperate to raise these children because they know that cooperative co-parents get better results. If you have conflict all the time and you're constantly fighting with the other parent, if you have a high conflict case, I don't care if you don't have that conflict in front of the kids, they sense it every time. They do.

Speaker 1: I see this a lot with the moms is like, dad's being difficult, he's doing things, he's undermining her parenting, he's, you know, being uncooperative and all this kind of thing. But then she starts reacting to what he's doing. And then the court views her as the problem because she's so reactive. And I think that comes from-

Speaker 2: That's frustrating, isn't it?

Speaker 1: It is. And I think it's partly from-

Speaker 2: Cause he really is sometimes being a jerk.

Speaker 1: I know. And he's yanking your chain and he's doing all those things. But then because of your reactiveness and because we tend to be like emotional, so I think our reaction is in some ways like emotionally louder, if that makes sense, then the, because men are real subtle, right? At the way that they poke and do things or get under your skin or whatever. A lot of times it's like real subtle things.

Speaker 2: I don't know what you mean.

Speaker 1: And then, yeah.

Speaker 2: I don't understand what you're talking about.

Speaker 1: Pleasant company included, let me just say.

Speaker 2: Wow, that hurts my feelings.

Speaker 1: And then the women are like, ah, you know.

Speaker 2: I'm going to take the men's side in a second.

Speaker 1: Okay, and then because you're overreacting, then he can step back and go, oh, see Court, I told you that she was crazy. And then the court's like, oh yeah, well, it all makes sense. She looks a little crazy to me. Yeah, she looks crazy, she's having a hysterical reaction. You know, and that's kind of what happens. And so you don't need to focus on tearing the other person down. And so the second strategy we're gonna talk about in a minute is a far greater strategy, but I wanna give you a chance to talk about the guy thing.

Speaker 2: Okay, so guys, guys, okay. These guys, I see this over and over again, they document everything. Like every little thing, oh, I recorded that conversation and she said the A word in front of the children. you know or you know just documenting everything and oh you know I want to call these ten witnesses. Yeah I have some women that are big on documenting too. But this is the you know the male-female thing you know if the gals are being reactive yeah the guys are too you know the way that they make you you drink through a fire hose is by every little thing. And I always tell people, when you're making arguments to the court, you've got 10 minutes. You've got to adopt a big picture approach. And all this little things, pretty soon, the court gets the impression that you're a nitpicker.

Speaker 1: When we're talking about this, like this is what the court wants from you. They want this cooperation. You know, granted, I know there are situations where the kids aren't safe and that's a different can of worms. And sometimes you gotta take steps to protect your kids if the other party is, you know, in some way a threat to them. But in the vast majority of cases, people just have disagreements about parenting. They don't agree what is the best for the kids. And that doesn't make either party a bad parent. It just means you have different ideas about parenting, which is something that's true for all of us, you know? So let's talk about strategy number two, because this strategy is difficult.

Speaker 2: This is really how you win in family court. In my opinion, this is the pathway to victory.

Speaker 1: Right, and this is difficult to do, but if you can do it where nobody else can, then you win, or where nobody else will, then you win. And this is the strategy that Thomas and I have really used in both of our cases in hundreds of I mean we have just seen this work over and over and over and over and over again and the weird thing to me is most attorneys won't give you this strategy. Right, right and most of our clients don't want to do it. Because frankly we make less money. We make a lot more money if you just fight.

Speaker 2: Like that's how we make money. I'll do a half day hearing. I'll do a full day hearing. But what's good for your family is this

Speaker 1: strategy and this is what works in court. If you truly want to win in court, this is what does it. But this also tends to keep you out of court more. Well here's

Speaker 2: here's a situation that that plays over and over again. You have two parents in court sitting at counsel table and each one of them is attacking the other. Right. Like she doesn't brush her teeth and she doesn't change the diaper and it comes over and the clothes don't fit and sores on her little butt and the other one says well yelling at me and he sends nasty text messages if one of them would stop that parent would win the case yeah either one of them it only takes one

Speaker 1: person to stop the conflict yeah okay so let's talk about what strategy number two is strategy number two which is the better strategy is to build yourself up not tearing them down but building yourself up and I don't mean that in like a an obnoxious like self-absorbed way that's not what I'm saying like oh hey this is me I'm this fantastic parent I have a PhD in literature right right I I mean, it's not that kind of thing, but it's more of a humble type of approach of like, look, you know, I just want to be a parent. I just want to be with the kid. I just want to have a good relationship. And your actions have to reflect that. So when you're having these interactions and these communications back and forth, they need to be focused around the child, not the other parent. It's about, this is good for the child because it will, you know, insulate him from conflict and create a more peaceful, consistent home for him. That's a good argument. The court's gonna like that argument. That's a far better argument than the other parent is causing problems.

Speaker 2: And another thing you wanna do, especially I'm talking a lot to guys. I mean, it's true of gals too, but guys, guys, you want more parenting time? forget about attacking her and her shortcomings. Emphasize what a great dad you are. Okay, and this was, I have to say, this was a successful strategy for me personally. And what I did is I took some time. Now, I do have an advantage because I'm self-employed. I can take time during the day to do podcasts and other things. This is work. Yes, this is work, but it's a break from my day to day. And I was able to volunteer in the kids elementary school as the spelling test guy. And pretty soon all the teachers, here comes the spelling test guy.

Speaker 1: And I was the spelling test backup.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but the thing is, you wanna tell the court that. If you've done that, tell the court that. Tell the court about the camping trip you went on. Tell the court about how you have helped this child to understand that he needs to respect his mom.

Speaker 1: Or how you've restructured your whole life and your work schedule and you moved closer to the other parent.

Speaker 2: I love that fact. If I have that fact, that's gold. If you moved from Shula Vista to North County to be close to mom so that you could co-parent.

Speaker 1: That's about a 45 minute spread for all you guys that aren't so tall and don't know how far that is, but.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and we did that. We moved about 20 minutes from where we were living before out to mom when your oldest son started kindergarten because we knew it was going to be an issue. And so, you know, people do things like one person will pick up and move far away, well, further away, even a 30 minute drive. If it's a young child in elementary school, the court's going to see that 30 minute drive as an additional burden on the child. And they're going to be like, you know what? This parent isn't thinking of the child or they wouldn't have moved there. That's just their impression of it for right or wrong. That's their impression. And so what you've got to do is understand what the court wants from you and make sure all the actions that you're taking are in concert with the view the court has of your

Speaker 2: case. that in that 10 minutes or 20 minutes that you have to argue your case, you have two choices. You can tear the other side down or you can emphasize what you have done to build your world and create a good co-parenting relationship. And if you do the latter, the court draws a conclusion that you're child-focused, that you're a problem solver, and that you're willing to cooperate, that you're willing to extend the hand of cooperation to the other side and that's what they're looking for. Right and you know the first

Speaker 1: strategy gives you like tearing the other person down has this little sort of twisted feel-good thing to it that feels good in the short term. Oh boy I told them. Yeah it feels good in the short term but it doesn't actually get you a result. You know that little satisfaction you get from tearing them up in the in the in in the negative approach doesn't work as well as building your own self up in the positive approach, but that positive approach takes a little bit longer. It's a long-term solution. It's the marathon piece of this, not the sprint, but you will eventually be able to turn the tide on your case if you're having a poor experience now and be able to, you know, to turn things around in the direction that you want them to go if you can stick to that plan.

Speaker 2: All right, so the bottom line?

Speaker 1: Bottom line is smile every time that your ex doesn't cooperate because know that if they're not cooperating and you are, that is putting bullets in your gun.

Speaker 2: Smile though your heart is breaking.

Speaker 1: How's that go? I like that. But really, I think that it comes down to the concept you always talk about, which is the black hat versus the white hat, which we actually got from another, uh, yeah, I stole that from Pierre. Yeah. But you know, you want the court to see you as the person with the white hat, not the person with the black hat and attacking the other person only gets you a black hat. So, you know, you got to try to turn that a little bit and be the positive light, you know, uh, supportive child focused, you know, problem-solving focused party in this case. And frankly, that would be a breath of fresh air for your judge. That's right. All right. So we hope this has been helpful. If you are watching us on YouTube, don't forget to hit, uh, the like button and subscribe to our channel. Uh, especially after Thomas's facial expressions today, you're going to want to see more of this. So, and if you are listening to us on the podcast, please remember to rate and review us. It helps other people find us, helps us get up in the rankings so that we can share our information with more people, and thanks for joining us. Thank you.