Speaker 1: My lead source tonight is the independent senator from Vermont, Senator Bernie Sanders. And it's great to have you here, Senator Sanders. You were there at the inauguration speech yesterday. Out of the first 24 hours of the Trump presidency, has anything surprised you?

Speaker 2: No. I think in terms of the speech, I suppose if you're a Trump supporter, you thought it was good. If you're a Trump opponent, as I am, you did not think it was good. But I think the main point that kind of you inferred to that a second ago, we're going to see a whole lot of stuff every single day, you're going to see all kinds of stuff. But it is terribly important, in my view, for the American people to stay focused on the most important issues facing our country. For example, very few people deny that our health care system is broken. It is dysfunctional and it is outrageously expensive. Did the president, in his inaugural speech, say one word about the health care crisis? In America today, we have a major housing crisis. Not just 800,000 people who are homeless, millions of people paying 50, 60% limited income on housing. Did the president say one word about the housing crisis? We have massive income and wealth inequality. The gap between the very rich and everybody else never been wider. But sitting behind the president, as you know, were the three wealthiest people in America worth together over a trillion dollars. Did the president say one word about income and wealth inequality? Obviously not. Those are his supporters.

Speaker 1: What was it like for you to see those people, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, all sitting behind Trump yesterday and not just behind him, but sitting next to his cabinet?

Speaker 2: Well, you know, Caitlyn, as you may know, I have been talking about my fears as to how the United States is moving rapidly toward an oligarchic form of society. And anybody who was in the room were on TV. And so the president of the United States, surrounded by the three wealthiest people in this country, one of whom made hundreds of millions of dollars in campaign contributions to him at a same time when we have more concentration of ownership than we have ever had. The conclusion I hope that most people reach is that we are moving toward an oligarchy. We've got to fight back. We've got to protect our democracy. We need an economy that works for all, not just the people on top.

Speaker 1: What would you say to Trump supporters or people who saw Elon Musk and them sitting there and thought, that's cool, these are people who have done a lot for the United States or an innovation and said, actually, it's not such a bad thing that people should be criticizing. What would you say to that?

Speaker 2: You know, we will see how it plays out. But I think, you know, Trump campaigned for president saying, I'm going to be a candidate of the working class of this country, right? Well, we will see if he addresses the health care crisis. We will see if he, in fact, is prepared to take on big pharma and lower the cost of prescription drugs. And certainly on issues like raising the minimum wage to a living wage, he's not going to be anywhere near where we have to be. In terms of housing, he's not going to do what has to be done. And the one thing he did say in terms of major issues facing our country is, in a sense, he talked about climate change. He said, drill, baby, drill. So at a time when we have had the 10 warmest years on record, last 10 years, when we have seen natural disasters in Los Angeles right now all over the world, what he says, hey, I'm going to make a horrific situation, even worse drilling for more oil, more carbon emissions. So bottom line here is, I think, as Americans, we've got to appreciate what's going on in the country. We're moving toward oligarchy. Sixty percent of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Millions work for starvation wages. We need a government that works for all, not just for Elon Musk. We will see what happens.

Speaker 1: Well, Elon Musk, he was not just there at the inauguration and obviously is playing a pretty big role in this administration. I saw him going into the West Wing yesterday. He's getting office space on the White House grounds. You voted against that law, forcing TikTok to sell from its parent company, ByteDance. You didn't believe it was the right way to handle that. But when Trump says he would be OK if Elon Musk tried to buy TikTok.

Speaker 2: Well, I mean, this is what oligarchy is about. You have Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post. Mr. Musk already owns Twitter. You have other billionaires owning the major media outlets in this country, CNN, other companies. If you look at who owns them, you're looking at large Wall Street firms. So you already have a major serious problem in terms of ownership of the media. If Musk ends up owning TikTok, it'll only make a bad situation much worse.

Speaker 1: What did you, and maybe you didn't notice this, we have a picture of it, but there was at one point where Shou Chu, the CEO of TikTok, who has ingratiated himself with Trump's circle, was seated next to Tulsi Gabbard, Trump's pick to be the director of national intelligence, who might get confirmed by the body you're in, we'll see. Do you, I mean, what do you, just to see them sitting together at an event like this, does that bother you?

Speaker 2: No, I mean, I don't know how they make their seating arrangements. I don't think that's all that important. What is important is that you have a small number of very wealthy people who own the media, who in recent months have kind of caved in to Trump. You're having Trump suing various media outlets. And it's going to result, I think, in a fear of the media standing up to Trump, worrying about being sued, worried about other problems. But bottom line is that the First Amendment is enormously important. We need media who are fearless in speaking out on the issues of the day, and you're not going to have that when you have a small number of very wealthy people controlling what we see here and read.

Speaker 1: On Tulsi Gabbard, have you met with her as she's vying to get Senate confirmation? Do you know how you plan to vote on her?

Speaker 2: No. I mean, I look forward to sitting down and chatting with her.

Speaker 1: But you could potentially see yourself voting for Tulsi Gabbard.

Speaker 2: I look forward to sitting down and chatting with her.

Speaker 1: I just was asking because you defended her before. She introduced you, actually, when you were nominated at the convention. You have defended her when some of your colleagues—or not your colleagues, but some Democrats were calling her a Russian asset in years prior. Do you think still that those allegations are unfounded?

Speaker 2: Look, I think when she ended up supporting me back in 2016, she got a lot of heat for that. I think her visit to Syria to meet with Assad, you know, well, Donald Trump did the right thing. Every once in a while he does. He met with the leader of North Korea. The idea that you should not sit down with your adversaries, whether it's Iran, whether it's China, whether it's North Korea, whether it's Syria, whatever it may be, I don't think that that's a valid criticism.

Speaker 1: The Washington Post had a report tonight on that, that even her staff then had questions, though, about what it was that they talked about for so long. It was a meeting that went for an extended period of time. Would you ask her about that when you do meet with her about this job? We'll see.

Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I would like to know what her views are on various issues.

Speaker 1: Sure. Okay. So keep us updated on that. But I do want to ask you about what we saw in the first 24 hours. You talked about focusing on what's important and what has impact. The January 6th pardons do have impact. We're going to talk to an officer who was beaten that day. When you see that he pardons virtually everybody who is convicted or has a case, what does that say about the rule of law to you?

Speaker 2: You're right. It says a lot. It especially says a lot given the fact that Trump claims to be a great supporter of the police in America, a great believer in law and order. He loves the cops. Well, 140 police officers were injured, a few died, because they defended members of Congress and they defended democracy in America against an insurrection. These guys are heroes. And to tell the entire world that we're going to pardon people who attacked and hurt police officers is telling, I think, the world that violence is okay and it's okay to attack police officers when you have a mind to do so. I think that is a horrible message, and I strongly disagree with his pardoning of those insurrectionists.

Speaker 1: One thing that he's been using tonight to defend it were President Biden's preemptive pardons. And I know you had come out and said he should seriously consider them for the January 6th committee. He not only pardoned the committee and the officers who testified before them, he also pardoned his brothers and his sister and their spouses.

Speaker 2: Okay, but you see, Caitlin, in my view, you can argue whether Biden did the right thing or the wrong thing. And what do you think? Well, what I think is that he was worried that given all of Trump's rhetoric, that Trump was going to go after his family and close associates. All right? That's a concern. But don't equate the two. I don't know that anybody in Trump's family tried to overthrow the United States government and attack police officers. What Trump did is say to the world- Anyone in Biden's family. Pardon me? Anyone in Biden's family. I'm sorry. What Trump is saying to the world is that it is okay for you to attack police officers when you have a mind to do that. And I think that is an outrageous message to send to the world.

Speaker 1: And you think you can't equate them? Because they're pointing to Biden pardoning the activists who killed two FBI agents. That's what they're saying. I do.

Speaker 2: I saw that. Look, that's a good excuse, but you can argue, did Biden do the right thing? Did he do the wrong thing? Fine. It has nothing to do with what Trump did today.

Speaker 1: On just what Trump has done overall, one thing he did was pull the United States out of the- he's seeking to pull the United States out of the World Health Organization. We all lived through a pandemic a few years ago. Do you think that could backfire?

Speaker 2: Well, if you believe in health, yeah. If you believe that it's important for the world to come together to address future pandemics, yeah. If you think it's important for scientists around the world to cooperate in figuring out how we create a more healthy planet, and if you want to protect the poorest people in the world, yeah, I think it's a major mistake. Look, I think it's outrageous. And I think, especially not only with pandemics, but with climate change, we've got to bring the world together to fight our common enemies. I was chairman of the health committee. We had all the experts in front of us. When you ask them, do you think another pandemic is going to come? Their answer is, yeah. Are we prepared? No, we're not. So the idea that you separate yourself from the rest of the world makes zero sense to

Speaker 1: me. And you've had a lot of conversations about that as the chairman of that committee. On just the next four years overall, is there anywhere you think you could work with the Trump administration? Is it Doge? Is it some of these cabinet officials like Chelsea Gabbard or R.K.?

Speaker 2: Yeah. For example, we will see whether Trump is going to keep any of the campaign promises he made to working people. You will recall he said he wants to cap interest rates on credit cards at 10 percent. You know what? At a time when desperate people pay 20, 30 percent interest rates, I think that's a good idea. Musk said there's a lot of waste in the Defense Department. Musk is right. All right. Trump has talked about cutting down on the cost of prescription drugs. We got to do that. If he's prepared to stand up for working families, I am prepared to work with him.

Speaker 1: OK, we'll see what that looks like. Senator Bernie Sanders, as always, thank you for your time.

Speaker 2: Thank you.