Speaker 1: President Trump announced yesterday a $500 billion investment in AI. Then last night, Elon Musk publicly criticized it, saying that they didn't have the money. What's that all about?

Speaker 2: So when I covered Trump in his first administration, there was this huge announcement around Foxconn. They were going to build this electrics factory in Wisconsin. It's this Taiwanese maker. And there was all this publicity around it. It was a big White House push. They encouraged reporters to talk about it. And then it never ended up materializing, certainly not in the way that it was touted. It did not create anywhere near as many jobs as they said initially. And so when this came out yesterday, and Trump was in the Roosevelt Room making this announcement, I reminded people that this did happen before. And with these announcements, you kind of have to wait and see what happens before you go too far. Now, on this one, we don't know. This is a data center that they're creating, hoping to kind of expand infrastructure in the United States when it comes to artificial intelligence, because people like Sam Altman, who was standing next to Trump in the room yesterday, have warned we're way behind China when it comes to the AI race. But Elon Musk is pouring cold water on this idea that this is a $500 billion investment. Initially it's supposed to be $100 billion, and then get up to $500 billion. Elon Musk is claiming that this company doesn't even have $10 billion behind this to do this. Now, Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, is disagreeing. They are basically in legal warfare. That's important context here between Elon Musk and Sam Altman. They're suing each other, and so—or Elon Musk is suing them. And so it is important to remember there's tension here. But really the story of this is Elon Musk is undercutting Donald Trump on one of the biggest announcements he made on his first full day in office. And it raises that question we've been talking about, which is, what does this look like when someone who is not afraid to voice his opinion—neither of them are—when those conflict and what this ultimately looks like? But the White House is saying that people should take Trump's word for it, not Elon's.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Elon Musk's criticism was that this consortium doesn't have the money, the $500 billion, and they can raise that money pretty easily. But it's fascinating to see this, you know, criticism of something that President Trump is touting as a major accomplishment. You know, from yesterday, Caitlin, we'll see you at 9 o'clock more. We're going to talk more on the second guessing right now by Elon Musk. I want to get perspective from tech journalist, author, and pivot podcast co-host Kara Swisher. So, Kara, I don't know if anybody should be surprised by this, but what do you make of Elon Musk appearing to undermine this major announcement from the president?

Speaker 3: Well, he wants to undermine Sam Altman. That's his goal. He's obviously in a lawsuit with him. He had a lawsuit, then he stopped that lawsuit, and then he had a lawsuit again because of his involvement with OpenAI. So this is a long-running feud between these two tech entrepreneurs, specifically around AI.

Speaker 1: They used to be friends, or, you know—

Speaker 3: They did. They did. A long time ago. Not very—it was many moons ago. But like a lot of people, I talk to Elon a lot, myself, Reid Hoffman, many others, they're not. There's been a real break, especially between Altman and Musk, over a variety of things. And Elon's alleging certain things, and Sam is denying them, or just shaking his head,

Speaker 1: essentially. In this particular instance, I mean, he's alleging, you know, they don't have the money. I know you've spoken to some of the parties involved in the Stargate project. Even if they don't have cash on hand, I assume they could raise this money quickly, you know? In four seconds. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot—I know of a lot of people who would want to invest.

Speaker 3: Yeah, there's not—there's no lack of money among these people. They could do it out of their own pockets. Just Larry Ellison standing there, you know, that's it. That's all you need. And interestingly, Ellison is close to Musk and has invested in Twitter and everything else. So there's plenty of money here. I mean, I think he's trying to impugn the thing because he's not part of it, or it's—you know, Trump is showing a little independence from everything—all things Elon, essentially.

Speaker 1: Do you—I mean, there are those, you know, who have wondered whether this alliance between Trump and Musk would hit some bums. Do you think it's a sign of that? I mean, how long would a Trump tolerate—you know, I mean, Musk could have gone to him privately and expressed, you know, his disdain.

Speaker 3: Sure, he could have. Yes. If he was anyone else, he could have. But Musk plays everything out, all his emotions on X or wherever he happens to be, because he's a look-at-me kind of fella. And so what he did was, I think, problematic. I think they were already sort of herding over that hand signal, however you want to interpret it—problematic, nonetheless. I think they think people within the Trump orbit do think Elon sucks up a lot of oxygen. And as Maggie Haberman said, Trump is a one-ring circus. And so there can't be two ringmasters. So you know, Elon's going to do what Elon wants to do, because that's what he's always done. And that's maybe not worked so well in a Trump environment, where Trump gets to call the shots.

Speaker 1: Can you just talk about the idea that they're proposing with Sam Altman and the SoftBank and Oracle?

Speaker 3: Well, SoftBank has had a history of this, saying they're going to promise this much money, this much money. And he's a great entrepreneur, let me just say. He's had some disasters, but he's had some huge successes, Masayoshi Son. And so, like a lot of people, like Elon Musk, by the way, has had some disasters and some huge successes. And so this is an idea to bring more AI into this country, so that we don't rely on China, as we do when we make phones or things like that. Let me add, the Biden administration had a chance, from what I understand, from several of these companies involved to be part of this. And there was all kinds of back and forth. But Trump, of course, walks in, having done no work, and takes credit for everything, like he's going to do with the economy and everything else. So in that way, he's quite canny to do so and affiliate himself with the future, especially around AI.

Speaker 1: If Musk had complete power within the Trump administration, could he not have inserted himself into this deal? I mean, is this a sign that he does not have? I mean, if Sam Altman is the person involved in this deal, not Elon Musk, Musk has his own company that he started. Is that a sign that he doesn't have, you know, the toehold, where he's not as secure?

Speaker 3: Well, OpenAI, which Sam runs, is the leader, period. They just are the leader in everything with chat GPT. So you would want to do a deal with them that's in this country. So I don't see why he's surprised by that. And in this case, someone close to, not the OpenAI people, but other people involved, said that notice he wasn't in the Roosevelt Room. He didn't wander in like he did with Jeff Bezos. He didn't wander into meetings, which he tends to do at Mar-a-Lago. The White House is a little different. You can't just wander into things. And specifically, those companies didn't want Elon near this thing. And Trump seemed to agree with it.

Speaker 1: What did you think of the hand gesture Elon Musk gave?

Speaker 3: I thought he, I think it was a fascist salute. I think he knew what he was doing. I don't know. I don't live inside that head of his. So I think, you know, everyone, he tried to describe as he's awkward. He was saying all kinds of things, as I said the other night. I just think, I think he's a troll above everything. And I think he probably knew what it would do, because he likes to set people off. That would be my guess from having seen him do it up close. Oh, let's see what happens when I do this. That's sort of his personality. And he likes to do that. He likes to poke bears. He likes to say all kinds of controversial things and watch everyone lose their minds. I think, you know, let me just say, this is a 53-year-old man. He really needs to do this kind of stuff. I don't understand it. But it took attention away from Donald Trump the very first day, no matter what. So he needs to be more careful in public if he's going to be a representative of the Trump administration.

Speaker 1: Kara Swisher, thank you.

Speaker 3: Thank you.