Speaker 1: Film Courage Shane in your new book WHAT YOU DON'T LEARN IN FILM SCHOOL, was there a chapter or section that sparked controversy?

Speaker 2: Shane Oh, absolutely. I think the most controversial chapter in the book is the one that's the most important and that's to get out, dig ditches, get your hands dirty and make yourself available and whatever it takes to get on a set within your morals, values and ethics parameter to go do it. And when I came up as we talked about how I made phone calls and hustled to get work and get on sets, I worked for free. I brought my own lunch. I showed up first and left last. I was sweeping floors when it wasn't in my job description. And I have close friends that our generation grew up, you know, I have a friend whose father won two Oscars and his mother has nine Emmys. You want to talk about nepotism? And when he got his act together like I did, he said, hey, you know, yeah, I want to work in this business. I want to be an editor. Mom picked up the phone, made a phone call. Okay, he'll be there tomorrow. Two o'clock. Perfect. Thank you. Click. You got a job. You're sweeping floors. A color deluxe. You're getting paid nothing. Pack a lunch, dear. And he swept floors at deluxe for two years. I think it was deluxe. And he didn't have a problem with that. He thought that's normal. I had won Emmys at a young age and started over and we talk about not being able to make rent. I had a little crew call back when I was coming up and you would literally subscribe for like $50 a month. You would call an 800 number and you would say press 1 for camera, press 2 for sound, press 3 for electric and you would press these things that you could do and then you would hear about jobs and you would write it down and it would give you a fax number and you would fax your resume. You would spend a day a week doing that and pray your phone rang. And sometimes it wouldn't. So a friend would call and say Hey, I need a swing in the camera department tomorrow. I pay lunch. You in it or out? And I was like Yeah, I'm there. The biggest problem I have today is when I talk to film schools or when people read that chapter about having to invest in yourself and build your resume. So many people are in my opinion in film school are sold on hopes and dreams and being the next Tarantino or Damien Chazelle and my advice is well if that doesn't happen what's the game plan? Go get out and learn camera, learn sound, learn editing, learn grip, learn gaff, learn AC, whatever you can and if somebody can't pay you to do something and you have an opportunity to make new contacts, learn and be on a set, something good will come from that. Would you rather sit home and play on your phone or play Xbox or watch repeated streaming shows that you've seen six times? You want to get out and make new contacts. And I find a lot of people think that's not the way to do it. And I also think okay, well over 85% of people who spend money and graduate from film schools never earn a dime in our industry and there's a reason for it and that's because they are uneducated on how to make their lives work and how to build a career base and contacts and become steady earners in our business and the way I did it, the way I know a lot of people who did it was they got out there and proved their worth by hustling. And some of the best workers like we just finished a film called BREAKEVEN that comes out, some of the best workers on that film were the interns from Pierce College. There's a kid that stands out. He worked so hard every day. Never said a word, head down, he anticipated everybody's needs, he was the guy that was cleaning up everybody's trash at the end of the night, showed up on days he wasn't supposed to be there just because he wanted to check in and say I'm coming in tomorrow, does anybody need anything? What I always tell people is when you make a movie and you're trying to carve your way, make it so the decision makers don't want to make a movie without you. And every time you do a film you sure meet a lot of people you never want to make another movie with but it's nice when you see those one or two diamonds in the rough that you say God I want to bring them back and they were somebody who was a PA, they were an assistant, they were a runner. And I think if people take that approach as I say in the book whenever you offer somebody a job it's what's my credit, what's my pay? It's always the first question. What's my credit, what's my pay? And I think it needs to be okay, take a breath and think about what the experience can do for you. I mean I talk in the same chapter I talk about the best thing I ever did for my career was say yes to something I knew nothing about, I did it for free and it took up a month and a half of my life and that was going to Bali, Indonesia with Zalman King when he directed IN GOD'S HANDS. Zalman had seen my work ethic around a soundstage he owned in Canoga Park. I was sweeping floors and he walked in and he goes I thought you were producing or doing something more important. And I said yeah everybody left I wanted to leave your studio the way we found it. And he says what's your name? And he came over and he talked to me and we befriended each other and he came and visited the next day on set and the next thing I know he called me up and he said what are you doing in November or December? And I said I don't know what do you got? And he said well I'm doing a film in Bali I think you should come. I said and do what? He said shadow me, learn. He goes I'll offer you free education working with me and we'll feed you and travel you and you figure out the rest. He didn't pay me a dime. It was like talk about film school you're sitting next to Zalman freaking King as he's directing a movie for a major studio and I was on his hip for a month and a half doing that. And I think it was more by just saying yes I didn't ask what I get a credit and what I get paid and they limboed me to the airport and first class me around trip and gave me my own bungalow in a five store resort. I didn't ask for any of that. I probably knew I'd be sleeping in a tube tent on the side of a mountain but they took care of me and I think that's the attitude obviously you don't want to be taken advantage of. You don't want to get into a situation that's not healthy but there seems to be such resistance in getting out and experiencing work without worrying about pay. There's too many people that will do it.

Speaker 1: Film Courage Do you think that's because for our generation Gen X that there wasn't the term intern and let's play the devil's advocate yes interns can be taken advantage of in terms of people using free labor and not stringing them along and not giving them a job. Is that what they're afraid of?

Speaker 2: I don't know. I think honestly I think as a society we have become pretty tender. I think we've become very sensitive and I think people are afraid of exploitation which I think is something we all need to consider. But I know I've got a nephew who worked his you know what off working for a financial institution in Arizona in Scottsdale working 18 hours a day getting their lunch, cleaning up their mess, getting them coffee, he didn't get paid much at all but now he's an actual worker in that industry and he used that. After college, this wasn't for college credits, he graduated college, his dad made a few phone calls and said you're going to go sweat, you're going to wear a tie and you're going to go ride their wave. You're not going to get paid, you're going to learn. It happens in other industries but it just seems in ours I think it's because the hours are abused. You know in a normal workplace it's an 8-hour workday with an hour break. In film it's 10 to 12 if you're lucky. And I think people are afraid they're going to be working 16, 18 hours a day as free labor. So it's hard to say why but I never questioned that. Maybe it was just the fact that I could be on a set and make connections and learn and I always figured well I could sit at home and wait for the phone to ring or I could be on a set and meet a director or a producer who may find my job skills necessary to bring me to the next journey and then make a great connection and say by the way I have a script. By the way, I also do camera, can I get an opportunity? And that doesn't happen by sitting at home, it just doesn't. Film Courage Great, excellent. At least I don't think it does, I mean you can upload YouTube and Vimeo until you're blue in the face.

Speaker 1: Film Courage Yeah, but working with, being around people is a different experience, absolutely. There's good and bad.

Speaker 2: Film Courage The best gigs and best opportunities I ever had in my life were showing up and working hard and proving myself as a worker who was competent and the people in the decision-making capacities going out of their way to say hey you know I appreciate your work today, thank you. And then you know we've got something coming up next week, I want to get you on that. And then they start to appreciate you and you work these gigs and next thing you know you have an audience, you have an ear with the decision-makers and when you want to move up in the world or they know people that will benefit by knowing you, that's all it is in this business.